Macedonia and the European Union

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  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    I know him well enough to know he is not defending the traitors that openly support the Tirana platform, he is more hung up on the people who may have voted for SDSM to oust what was already a treacherous DPMNE, and are not stuck between a rock and a hard place. These people need to be reached not condemned. These are the people that needs to be swayed to a third option.

    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
    I know Vic is a decent person, and I don’t question his patriotism. I also know that his heart may be in the right place, but I think he needs to take into account the consequences of who and what he is defending, irrespective of the why.

    Couldn't agree more, I think that's why Vic wanted to be careful about just writing off "half" of Macedonians, because in reality many of them are just as concerned as you, but are chained by their slavish mindset that they have only 2 choices.

    They are traitors if they also support DPNE in my view. I’m not asking or expecting anyone to support either party. I am simply imploring Macedonians to look at the reality of what’s in front of them right now and capitalise on the opportunity to unite to fight against its implementation, before it’s too late.

    SDSM voters aren't the problem in my opinion, I think they can be more easily swayed into a new party, its DPMNE voters you will find hard to wake up.

    Comment

    • Tomche Makedonche
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2011
      • 1123

      Originally posted by Gocka View Post
      I know him well enough to know he is not defending the traitors that openly support the Tirana platform, he is more hung up on the people who may have voted for SDSM to oust what was already a treacherous DPMNE, and are not stuck between a rock and a hard place. These people need to be reached not condemned. These are the people that needs to be swayed to a third option.

      Couldn't agree more, I think that's why Vic wanted to be careful about just writing off "half" of Macedonians, because in reality many of them are just as concerned as you, but are chained by their slavish mindset that they have only 2 choices.

      SDSM voters aren't the problem in my opinion, I think they can be more easily swayed into a new party, its DPMNE voters you will find hard to wake up.
      My criticism is towards those who remain inactive, not those who are knowingly traitors, I wouldn't waste my breath on them.

      The fact is we are on a clock here, if there was an unlimited amount of time to pamper each and every Macedonians ass on this issue until they come around to the reality of the situation, I would go with that strategy, but there isn't. I think they've had a reasonable amount of time to consider their options. They can see what is about to happen. They either unite and start to act now, or roll over. Either way, if you are against its implementation, I think defending the inactive at all costs, irrespective of their reasons, no longer helps the achievement of that goal
      Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 03-29-2017, 08:41 PM.
      “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
        Macedonians must feel blissfully fortunate to know that they can always rely on other Macedonians to defend their inaction no matter the circumstance. When they allowed the flag to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they allowed the name to be changed, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when they walk out in the Olympic games under FYROM, Macedonian defenders are there to have their back; when they agreed to the Framework Agreement, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; when the allowed SDS and DPNE to implement the Framework agreement over the past 16 years, Macedonian defenders were there to have their back; and now when SDS implements the Tirana Platform, and we subsequently debate amongst each other about how and why it all went wrong .....
        Well, that pretty much sums up Macedonian non-activism of the 21st century in a nutshell.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337

          If we are going to make statements that categorize half of Macedonians as essentially traitors, we'd better have evidence. These are destructive and divisive accusations that should be used sparingly and only if they are accurate.

          Further, regardless of their accuracy, what is the purpose? How long can we keep up the "you either stand with me or you stand for nothing" or "you're either with me or against me" attitude? Misirkov warned about how this mentality is self-defeating and how categorizing fellow Macedonians as such is counterproductive. So what goal are you trying to achieve by clumping half of Macedonians who aren't taking a desired action as anti-Macedonian? What does it actually accomplish? Is someone becoming enlightened or are we cornering individuals and fracturing our narod?

          I have seen people take this attitude for years and it does nothing good. Instead of finding a way to positively service our people and nation it just creates barriers. When the followers of this approach would write off Macedonians the very way you're doing, Delchev and others would go out of their way to positively influence and persuade people, to encourage and motivate them,not to brand them as antiMacedonian simply because they did not reach the same conclusion in the same manner.

          The Macedonians are obviously divided on political lines and no movement or party that doesn't simultaneously address the national, social and economic woes facing the Macedonians is going to gain the people's support. This holistic approach is what Vmro utilized in the 1890s and it worked to a certain degree because it recognized that the masses are not unified in needs, wants and abilities. We shouldn't expect the Tirana platform and the manner it was rejected by Dpne to create an uproar in the opposing political party and we shouldn't demand that it does unless we can disassociate the politics of it, given the context of the current Macedonian society. If the goal is to defeat Albanianization and to strengthen the Macedonian society and to promote an protect our culture and identity, there's a better way of going at it.
          Last edited by vicsinad; 03-29-2017, 10:03 PM.

          Comment

          • vicsinad
            Senior Member
            • May 2011
            • 2337

            We have always been on the clock. It's no different now. Every last Macedonian is worthy of our time and efforts if we really want to see Macedonia succeed. After all, the Macedonian cause is about Macedonia and Macedonians. It is as much about human beings that belong to the same genetic and cultural stock as it is about national ideals. We cannot serve one without serving the other.

            Comment

            • vicsinad
              Senior Member
              • May 2011
              • 2337

              Originally posted by Gocka View Post
              Easy now, that's a bit harsh. Vicsinad is as decent of a person as they come, and very patriotic. I think what Vic means is that time are tense, there is a lot of information and misinformation out there and maybe us jumping on the backs of our countrymen is counterproductive.

              Macedonians in ROM can't win. If they come out and protest, then they are DPMNE goons according to NIKO, if they support SDSM then they are traitors according to TM. If they stay silent then they must agree with SDSM anyway.

              What we really want from them is obviously to kick both parties to the curb and take down the whole system, but its not in their DNA, they don't know where to start. Macedonia desperately needs enlightened outside agitators to light a fire under their collective ass. This is what I meant when I said they lack morality, some moral fiber that pushes them to stand up for themselves.

              Whats funny is both of you despise SDSM and DPMNE but are too caught up in technicalities to realize you both want the same thing.
              Thanks gocka.

              To be fair, I don't think it is technicalities. I think it is attitude and approach where the difference lies.

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                Very well put, and I like the historical reference as well.

                I said it in another thread and I still contend that Macedonians need a reprogramming. For a long time we have been trying to reach them by speaking about politics, about history, assuming that they just didn't have the right facts in order to come to the desired conclusions. I'm starting to realize the problem is something totally different.

                We have a society in Macedonians that lacks something at its core. We are currently light years away from Macedonians being able to make wise political and social choices.

                Let me if I may give a example that I think speaks volume about a morality and mentality problem. Anyone who has lived in a Macedonian village knows that this story is universal. Every village has a man or two that gets drunk and beats his wife. Everyone knows its happening, but how often does someone go and stop it? The prevailing logic is, "well its wrong, but its non of my business". This simplistic real life scenario, says a lot about someone. The same kind of man who could stand idly by and watch that happen day after day and do nothing, is the same man who allows their flag to be changed, or for the Tirana platform to be implemented. There are countless anecdotal examples of daily Macedonian behavior that speaks volumes about the character of its people.

                If you really want to save Macedonia, you need Macedonians who at their core can not tolerate injustice, who feel the need to step in and stop something that is wrong, in their everyday life. The man who can do that is also the man who will not stand idly by while his country is stolen from under his feet.

                Some may disagree, but Macedonians have large holes in their morality. Its the same reason Russia, a country of 140 million can not topple a hand full of brutal criminals.

                Delcev identified this weakness in the Macedonian psyche, and in my opinion, it has only gotten worse.

                How do you convince people to be this way, well the only way I can think of is to lead by example, and hope your actions don't go unnoticed.


                Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                If we are going to make statements that categorize half of Macedonians as essentially traitors, we'd better have evidence. These are destructive and divisive accusations that should be used sparingly and only if they are accurate.

                Further, regardless of their accuracy, what is the purpose? How long can we keep up the "you either stand with me or you stand for nothing" or "you're either with me or against me" attitude? Misirkov warned about how this mentality is self-defeating and how categorizing fellow Macedonians as such is counterproductive. So what goal are you trying to achieve by clumping half of Macedonians who aren't taking a desired action as anti-Macedonian? What does it actually accomplish? Is someone becoming enlightened or are we cornering individuals and fracturing our narod?

                I have seen people take this attitude for years and it does nothing good. Instead of finding a way to positively service our people and nation it just creates barriers. When the followers of this approach would write off Macedonians the very way you're doing, Delchev and others would go out of their way to positively influence and persuade people, to encourage and motivate them,not to brand them as antiMacedonian simply because they did not reach the same conclusion in the same manner.

                The Macedonians are obviously divided on political lines and no movement or party that doesn't simultaneously address the national, social and economic woes facing the Macedonians is going to gain the people's support. This holistic approach is what Vmro utilized in the 1890s and it worked to a certain degree because it recognized that the masses are not unified in needs, wants and abilities. We shouldn't expect the Tirana platform and the manner it was rejected by Dpne to create an uproar in the opposing political party and we shouldn't demand that it does unless we can disassociate the politics of it, given the context of the current Macedonian society. If the goal is to defeat Albanianization and to strengthen the Macedonian society and to promote an protect our culture and identity, there's a better way of going at it.

                Comment

                • Tomche Makedonche
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 1123

                  Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                  If we are going to make statements that categorize half of Macedonians as essentially traitors, we'd better have evidence. These are destructive and divisive accusations that should be used sparingly and only if they are accurate.

                  Further, regardless of their accuracy, what is the purpose? How long can we keep up the "you either stand with me or you stand for nothing" or "you're either with me or against me" attitude? Misirkov warned about how this mentality is self-defeating and how categorizing fellow Macedonians as such is counterproductive. So what goal are you trying to achieve by clumping half of Macedonians who aren't taking a desired action as anti-Macedonian? What does it actually accomplish? Is someone becoming enlightened or are we cornering individuals and fracturing our narod?

                  I have seen people take this attitude for years and it does nothing good. Instead of finding a way to positively service our people and nation it just creates barriers. When the followers of this approach would write off Macedonians the very way you're doing, Delchev and others would go out of their way to positively influence and persuade people, to encourage and motivate them,not to brand them as antiMacedonian simply because they did not reach the same conclusion in the same manner.

                  The Macedonians are obviously divided on political lines and no movement or party that doesn't simultaneously address the national, social and economic woes facing the Macedonians is going to gain the people's support. This holistic approach is what Vmro utilized in the 1890s and it worked to a certain degree because it recognized that the masses are not unified in needs, wants and abilities. We shouldn't expect the Tirana platform and the manner it was rejected by Dpne to create an uproar in the opposing political party and we shouldn't demand that it does unless we can disassociate the politics of it, given the context of the current Macedonian society. If the goal is to defeat Albanianization and to strengthen the Macedonian society and to promote an protect our culture and identity, there's a better way of going at it.
                  Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                  We have always been on the clock. It's no different now. Every last Macedonian is worthy of our time and efforts if we really want to see Macedonia succeed. After all, the Macedonian cause is about Macedonia and Macedonians. It is as much about human beings that belong to the same genetic and cultural stock as it is about national ideals. We cannot serve one without serving the other.
                  First off, all I said was that half of Macedonians already support Zajko and the Tirana Platform which I qualified by pointing out the silence and lack of opposition towards Zajko’s intended course of action amongst what appears to be a large proportion of the population (which includes his own party officials and supporters).

                  The term traitor was introduced by Gocka in his assumption that that is what I consider SDS supporters to be (which I assume is derived from the fact that SDS supporters, who won 49 out of 120 seats at the elections, are not opposing Zajko’s intended course of action). I corrected that by clarifying that I consider DPNE supporters traitors as well. So when it comes to the label of “traitors”, I am not personally singling out any party over another in that respect.

                  On the contrary, it is you yourself who has attributed the words “traitor” and “anti-Macedonians” as describing those who support SDS and/or remain silent in opposition to the proposed implementation of the Tirana platform, which interestingly, are the very same people you seek to defend for having such stances. This seems to indicate an internal conundrum of values in my opinion.

                  Its funny how you interpreted my call for Macedonians to transcend political party allegiances to unite in opposition of the Tirana platform as counterproductive since my approach risks division (as though the division doesn't already exist between Macedonians). Also I'm not writing anyone off, I am making them aware of their accountability for the situation.

                  Nevertheless, you can rest easy in the fact that the way you wish to proceed with tackling this issue will likely transpire. Macedonians will continue to wait around for that elusive third option to manifest itself out of thin air; They will continue to utilise the technicalities and equitable principles to justify remaining divided since they are well aware of each current political parties true motives (they are after all definitely too smart to have the wool pulled over their eyes in that regard); They will continue to have other Macedonians defend their inactivity by spinning the moral context of issues to appease their sensitivities; and they will continue to remain ignorant of the eventual repercussions of their idleness. So don’t worry, you're right, excuse my counterproductive approach, take your time pampering to each and every Macedonian, educating them on what the implementation of the Tirana Platform will mean to their country. Take as much time as you and they need. In the interim period, here is their reward for their patience, intellectualism, equitable principles and moral sensitivities:



                  Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 03-30-2017, 01:11 AM.
                  “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                  Comment

                  • vicsinad
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2011
                    • 2337

                    Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                    First off, all I said was that half of Macedonians already support Zajko and the Tirana Platform which I qualified by pointing out the silence and lack of opposition towards Zajko’s intended course of action amongst what appears to be a large proportion of the population (which includes his own party officials and supporters).

                    The term traitor was introduced by Gocka in his assumption that that is what I consider SDS supporters to be (which I assume is derived from the fact that SDS supporters, who won 49 out of 120 seats at the elections, are not opposing Zajko’s intended course of action). I corrected that by clarifying that I consider DPNE supporters traitors as well. So when it comes to the label of “traitors”, I am not personally singling out any party over another in that respect.

                    On the contrary, it is you yourself who has attributed the words “traitor” and “anti-Macedonians” as describing those who support SDS and/or remain silent in opposition to the proposed implementation of the Tirana platform, which interestingly, are the very same people you seek to defend for having such stances. This seems to indicate an internal conundrum of values in my opinion.

                    Its funny how you interpreted my call for Macedonians to transcend political party allegiances to unite in opposition of the Tirana platform as counterproductive since my approach risks division (as though the division doesn't already exist between Macedonians). Also I'm not writing anyone off, I am making them aware of their accountability for the situation.

                    Nevertheless, you can rest easy in the fact that the way you wish to proceed with tackling this issue will likely transpire. Macedonians will continue to wait around for that elusive third option to manifest itself out of thin air; They will continue to utilise the technicalities and equitable principles to justify remaining divided since they are well aware of each current political parties true motives (they are after all definitely too smart to have the wool pulled over their eyes in that regard); They will continue to have other Macedonians defend their inactivity by spinning the moral context of issues to appease their sensitivities; and they will continue to remain ignorant of the eventual repercussions of their idleness. So don’t worry, you're right, excuse my counterproductive approach, take your time pampering to each and every Macedonian, educating them on what the implementation of the Tirana Platform will mean to their country. Take as much time as you and they need. In the interim period, here is their reward for their patience, intellectualism, equitable principles and moral sensitivities:



                    https://www.amazon.com/Learn-Albania.../dp/1881901602
                    Do not attempt to minimize what you said. You lump Zajko and Tirana platform supporters in the same category, which indicates the political significance of your statement regardless of your after-the-fact classification of Dpne supporters. Maybe you dont realize the political overtones, but they are there and your statement cannot really be interpreted any other way. You cannot or will not disassociate Sds supporters from the Tirana platform. You can't or won't do this because you can only use the number "half" by including Sds supporters in your classification, and you can't easily imply anti-macedonianess in these Sds supporters' attitudes without the Tirana platform.

                    This is further evidenced by the fact that your sweeping statement doesn't say anything about silent dpne supporters. What, that they voted for Grujo means that they are anti Tirana platform so they don't figure into the group of people who support the Tirana platform, only zajko supporters do? And knowing that Albania has been meddling in Macedonian affairs for years and that Albanianization has increased in recent years, where was your fervent classification of Macedonians in such categories before Ivanov refused to grant sds the mandate or during dui and dpne's reign? It is clear to me that your approach has political overtones and is thus divisive and counter productive.

                    By the way, my classification of Tirana platform supporters as traitors and anti-macedonian was a interpretation of what I think you clearly meant. If I'm wrong please correct me. Do I think such platform is anti Macedonian? Of course. Do I come to the same conclusion as you that supposedly half of Macedonians are silent on the issue and that even if they were that means they are Tirana platform supporters and thus acting traitorous? No.

                    Please don't sit behind your computer screen trying to sniff out internal conundrums of values while labeling other approaches as mere pampering as your message to Zajko and supposed Tirana platform supporters falls onto the ears of a limited circle of Diaspora Macedonians. My values are fine and my only conundrum is figuring out how to be the best advocate for the Macedonian cause that I can be.

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      Originally posted by Gocka View Post
                      Very well put, and I like the historical reference as well.

                      I said it in another thread and I still contend that Macedonians need a reprogramming. For a long time we have been trying to reach them by speaking about politics, about history, assuming that they just didn't have the right facts in order to come to the desired conclusions. I'm starting to realize the problem is something totally different.

                      We have a society in Macedonians that lacks something at its core. We are currently light years away from Macedonians being able to make wise political and social choices.

                      Let me if I may give a example that I think speaks volume about a morality and mentality problem. Anyone who has lived in a Macedonian village knows that this story is universal. Every village has a man or two that gets drunk and beats his wife. Everyone knows its happening, but how often does someone go and stop it? The prevailing logic is, "well its wrong, but its non of my business". This simplistic real life scenario, says a lot about someone. The same kind of man who could stand idly by and watch that happen day after day and do nothing, is the same man who allows their flag to be changed, or for the Tirana platform to be implemented. There are countless anecdotal examples of daily Macedonian behavior that speaks volumes about the character of its people.

                      If you really want to save Macedonia, you need Macedonians who at their core can not tolerate injustice, who feel the need to step in and stop something that is wrong, in their everyday life. The man who can do that is also the man who will not stand idly by while his country is stolen from under his feet.

                      Some may disagree, but Macedonians have large holes in their morality. Its the same reason Russia, a country of 140 million can not topple a hand full of brutal criminals.

                      Delcev identified this weakness in the Macedonian psyche, and in my opinion, it has only gotten worse.

                      How do you convince people to be this way, well the only way I can think of is to lead by example, and hope your actions don't go unnoticed.
                      This is well said.

                      Comment

                      • DraganOfStip
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 1253

                        Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                        If we are going to make statements that categorize half of Macedonians as essentially traitors, we'd better have evidence.
                        Well, the definition of an "essential traitor" may vary from one person to another.
                        However, let's not forget that 900.000 out of 1.200.000 voters at the December elections gave their vote for either DPMNE or SDSM.
                        Now, assuming that roughly about 100.000 of those were Albanian votes given to SDSM, that still leaves about 66% of all votes.
                        To me, as someone who has endured the criminal and treacherous rule of both these parties for most of my life, this is simply demoralizing to say the least.
                        I could understand the several thousand people that directly benefited from the rule of these 2, but the rest "average Joe's" that did so, for me are just lost in space.
                        I really don't know what's wrong with them, it's beyond my comprehension.
                        They are traitors to their own selves.
                        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                        ― George Orwell

                        Comment

                        • Tomche Makedonche
                          Senior Member
                          • Oct 2011
                          • 1123

                          Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                          Do not attempt to minimize what you said. You lump Zajko and Tirana platform supporters in the same category, which indicates the political significance of your statement regardless of your after-the-fact classification of Dpne supporters. Maybe you dont realize the political overtones, but they are there and your statement cannot really be interpreted any other way. You cannot or will not disassociate Sds supporters from the Tirana platform. You can't or won't do this because you can only use the number "half" by including Sds supporters in your classification, and you can't easily imply anti-macedonianess in these Sds supporters' attitudes without the Tirana platform.

                          This is further evidenced by the fact that your sweeping statement doesn't say anything about silent dpne supporters. What, that they voted for Grujo means that they are anti Tirana platform so they don't figure into the group of people who support the Tirana platform, only zajko supporters do? And knowing that Albania has been meddling in Macedonian affairs for years and that Albanianization has increased in recent years, where was your fervent classification of Macedonians in such categories before Ivanov refused to grant sds the mandate or during dui and dpne's reign? It is clear to me that your approach has political overtones and is thus divisive and counter productive.

                          By the way, my classification of Tirana platform supporters as traitors and anti-macedonian was a interpretation of what I think you clearly meant. If I'm wrong please correct me. Do I think such platform is anti Macedonian? Of course. Do I come to the same conclusion as you that supposedly half of Macedonians are silent on the issue and that even if they were that means they are Tirana platform supporters and thus acting traitorous? No.

                          Please don't sit behind your computer screen trying to sniff out internal conundrums of values while labeling other approaches as mere pampering as your message to Zajko and supposed Tirana platform supporters falls onto the ears of a limited circle of Diaspora Macedonians. My values are fine and my only conundrum is figuring out how to be the best advocate for the Macedonian cause that I can be.
                          The above is so convoluted that I don't know where to begin, or rather, I really don't think I can be bothered to address it.

                          Don't worry Vic, you win brother. Keep defending the inactive. I hope they reward your dedication and efforts with the results you're after
                          “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                          Comment

                          • vicsinad
                            Senior Member
                            • May 2011
                            • 2337

                            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                            Well, the definition of an "essential traitor" may vary from one person to another.
                            However, let's not forget that 900.000 out of 1.200.000 voters at the December elections gave their vote for either DPMNE or SDSM.
                            Now, assuming that roughly about 100.000 of those were Albanian votes given to SDSM, that still leaves about 66% of all votes.
                            To me, as someone who has endured the criminal and treacherous rule of both these parties for most of my life, this is simply demoralizing to say the least.
                            I could understand the several thousand people that directly benefited from the rule of these 2, but the rest "average Joe's" that did so, for me are just lost in space.
                            I really don't know what's wrong with them, it's beyond my comprehension.
                            They are traitors to their own selves.
                            This is essentially the same argument used in US politics and in many places around the world. Why do most people vote for the same few parties when those parties' internal drivers are either corrupt or work against the peoples' interests? It's a worldwide phenomena why people do this and many political analysts and intellectuals struggle to explain it.

                            It's one thing to argue that people are voting against their own interests or that people are blind to the deception or that they are naive or apathetic. Yet, to somehow construe this as meaning that these people support an anti-Macedonian stance (but who never supported an Albanian political party or a party that latched on to the Tirana platform) because they haven't expressed their dissatisfaction of the platform to the satisfactory level of someone else is, if not false, at least unproductive. The same applies to construing DPNE supporters in a similar light regarding the corruption and Albanianization that has happened under DPNE's leaders watch. It doesn't accomplish anything. People will dig their heels into their positions out of stubbornness or mistrust of your intent and ambitions. We may have a different perception or awareness or understanding of an issue that we want others to realize, and this method is a direct attack on people instead of a collaborative attempt at understanding and action.

                            If you know a bridge is damaged and will collapse with the addition of any more weight, and you then spot a girl walking toward the bridge who doesn't know that fact, and she doesn't speak your language, what do you do? Scold her in your language as she walks to the bridge and eventually on the bridge until it falls apart, and you then blame her for the bridge's collapse? Or do you make attempts to communicate with her to bring her to the same understanding as you, so you save the bridge? Or do you tackle her? Or do you shoot her? Or do you do something about repairing the bridge so you don't have to put yourself or her in that position?

                            For some reason, it is my opinion that many Macedonians prefer the scolding or shooting route. And it's almost always claimed that those options are our best options because "we don't have the time" or "we don't have the ability" for anything else. So the bridge remains damaged and the potential for it and the people crossing it to completely come crashing down is always there because we never have time to fix the bridge or try to make ourselves understood.

                            And if the issue is that urgent or that dire to us, and we feel that there is no time to be wasted, then we should be willing to make the sacrifice necessary in order to achieve the end result. It's easy to speak from a platform and it's easy to freely speak our minds about issues and then rest our heads easy at night knowing that we haven't put anything personal at stake other than our free time and our egos. It's much harder to get out there and back what we say with action, to get our hands dirty, to sacrifice more of ourselves then we demand of others. If we really feel this way, then we ought to serve our people by leading by example, as Gocka mentioned.

                            Comment

                            • vicsinad
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2011
                              • 2337

                              Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
                              The above is so convoluted that I don't know where to begin, or rather, I really don't think I can be bothered to address it.
                              You can be bothered to make sweeping statements but you can't be bothered to engage in conversation about them? You write off Macedonians who haven't supposedly displayed the same spirit of anti-Albanianization as you do, to your standards, and you write-off Macedonians who make supposed convoluted statements? Soon you'll just be down to bothering yourself!

                              So who is the standard-bearer of the "active" then? The current protesters? You? Me? What's hard about answering the question I posed a few posts back?

                              What do they have to do or say -- and who do they have to say it to and who do they have to do it in front of -- in order not to be silent?
                              Providing an answer to this question would at least would give some insight as to how we can let Zajko supporters know that they no longer fall into the category of Tirana-platform supporters.

                              Don't worry Vic, you win brother.
                              Well, at least I now have clues as to what mindset you're in.

                              Comment

                              • mklion
                                Member
                                • Jun 2014
                                • 100

                                Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                                Well, the definition of an "essential traitor" may vary from one person to another.
                                However, let's not forget that 900.000 out of 1.200.000 voters at the December elections gave their vote for either DPMNE or SDSM.
                                Now, assuming that roughly about 100.000 of those were Albanian votes given to SDSM, that still leaves about 66% of all votes.
                                To me, as someone who has endured the criminal and treacherous rule of both these parties for most of my life, this is simply demoralizing to say the least.
                                I could understand the several thousand people that directly benefited from the rule of these 2, but the rest "average Joe's" that did so, for me are just lost in space.
                                I really don't know what's wrong with them, it's beyond my comprehension.
                                They are traitors to their own selves.
                                Only 25000 Albanians voted for SDSM in the 2016 Elections. The rest were Macedonian voters.

                                The way we know this is by comparing the 2011 vs the 2016 parlimentary elections to see where the votes came from

                                Albanians always vote around the same number of 240000 votes in almost every election since independence amounting to 19-22% of voting in the country.

                                We can determine an estimate of what percentage of Albanian voters voted For SDSM based on looking at each municipality by directly comparing the 2011 to 2016 elections.

                                The way we can tell is we know which municipalities are ethnically pure Albanian, which are ethnically pure Macedonian and which are ethnically mixed.

                                The statistics for 2011 Elections are here



                                The statistics for 2016 Elections are here



                                The first thing we need to look at is in 2011 there were 1156049 votes cast and in 2016 there were 1191852 votes cast. The difference is a net increase in the country of 35803 votes cast in 2016 for all political parties

                                Now we have to look at each voting district (there are 7 total including outside of the country for diaspora). From each district we can see how many more people voted. This way when we calculate our change in voting we can see in general how many Albanians vs. Macedonians voted for SDSM. You can see that the majority of the increase in votes comes from Voting Regions 1 and 2.

                                Voting Region #1 (+13788 votes)
                                2011 Elections – 204035 Votes Cast
                                2016 Elections – 217823 Votes Cast

                                Voting Region #2 (+16287 votes)
                                2011 Elections – 187636 Votes Cast
                                2016 Elections – 203923 Votes Cast

                                Voting Region #3 (-4810 votes)
                                2011 Elections – 209003 Votes Cast
                                2016 Elections – 204193 Votes Cast

                                Voting Region #4 (-326 votes)
                                2011 Elections – 212223 Votes Cast
                                2016 Elections – 211897 Votes Cast

                                Voting Region #5 (+1809)
                                2011 Elections – 186015 Votes Cast
                                2016 Elections – 187824 Votes Cast

                                Voting Region #6 (+833)
                                2011 Elections – 157127 Votes Cast
                                2016 Elections – 157960 Votes Cast

                                Voting Region #7 (+4154 Diaspora Votes)
                                2011 Elections – 4088 Votes Cast
                                2016 Elections –8232 Votes Cast

                                Now lets break down each voting district into Ethnic Municipalities and see if we can determine how many Albanians and Macedonians voted for SDSM. First we have to separate the municipalities from Pure Albanian vs. Pure Macedonian vs. Ethnically mixed. Forgive me if I have missed/mixed up the odd Municipality but I believe most of them are here.

                                Pure Albanian Municipalities (+8560 increase in votes from 2011 to 2016 for SDSM)
                                Vrapciste +736
                                Bogovinje +850
                                Tearce +618
                                Saraj +2973
                                Aracinovo +2030
                                Lipkovo +734
                                Zhelino +379
                                Kichevo (Zajas + Oslomej) +240

                                Pure Macedonian Municipalities (+35307 increase in votes from 2011 to 2016 for SDSM)
                                Electoral Unit (4 South eastern Macedonia no Albanians live here) + 5264
                                Karposh +3727
                                Centar +4330
                                Aerodrom +5060
                                Kisela Voda +3405
                                Gorce Petrov +2341
                                Staro Nagoranice +100
                                Petrovic +503
                                Ilinden +189
                                Bitola +4482
                                Veles +1093
                                Stip +2013
                                Sveti Nikole +592
                                Lozovo -45
                                Grandsko +36
                                Karbinci -49
                                Cheshinovo-Oblesevo +57
                                Probistip +639
                                Zrnovci -60
                                Kocani +85
                                Kratovo +281
                                Vinica +426
                                Makedonski Brod + 17
                                Rankovce +15
                                Berovo +11
                                Pecevo +290
                                Delcevo +62
                                Makedonski Kamenica +634
                                Ohrid +101
                                Debarca -417
                                Vevcani -5
                                Plasnica (Turkish) +134


                                Ethnically Mixed Municipalities where both Albanians and Macedonians live (+23393 Increased Votes from 2011 to 2016 for SDSM)
                                Butel +2262
                                Studenicani +1513
                                Kumanovo +2480
                                Dolneni +535
                                Chaska +734
                                Zelenikovo +305
                                Sopiste + 294
                                Gazi Baba +3754
                                Chair +2226
                                Suto Orizari +829
                                Cucer Sandevo +369
                                Mavrovo I Rostusa +299
                                Gostivar +2853
                                Tetovo +2163
                                Jegunovce -102
                                Brvenica +298
                                Resen +170
                                Struga +213
                                Centar Zhupa +222
                                Demir Hisar -4
                                Krusevo +281
                                Krivogastani -4
                                Dolneni +535
                                Kichevo (Drugovo,vranes.Kicevo) -42
                                Diaspora Votes +1594

                                So now from the 2011 election to the 2016 election the votes for SDSM increased from 368496 in 2011 to 436981 in 2016 for a difference of +68485 votes.

                                So now we can determine which votes come from which ethnicity Albanian vs. Macedonian.

                                Votes from Ethnically pure Albanian Municipalities +8560
                                Votes from Ethnically pure Macedonian Municipalities +35307
                                Ethnically Mixed votes (either Albanian or Macedonian) +23393
                                Total of these added together are = 67260 which is very close to the 2011 to 2016 change of 68485in SDSM votes I showed above

                                Now lets assume that all of the “Ethnically mixed votes” are all Albanian ethnicity (even though we all know its impossible for it to be all Albanians). Then the total number of potential Albanian votes in 2016 are:
                                DPA = 30964
                                DUI = 86796
                                PDP = 1143
                                Alb. Alliance = 35121
                                Besa = 57868
                                SDSM Votes from pure Albanian Municipalities = 8560

                                Potential Albanian votes that are really just ethnically mixed Votes that are giving to Albanian Ethnicity = 23393
                                ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM POTENTIAL ALBANIAN VOTES = 243845

                                So its most likely that around 25000 Albanians voted for SDSM and not any more.

                                Comment

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