Vasil Iljov and the Inscriptions in Macedonia

[Bratot]

There is nothing wrong with criticising uncorroborated 'evidence' presented by someone and expecting them to substantiate their claims, just because they are Macedonian. I think we need to be more critical about what is presented as 'evidence' as opposed to 'work in progress', in order to rid ourselves of some less desirable attributes which can portray us in a negative light. How long are you prepared for Iljov to substantiate his claims, Bratot?

I did not say is wrong, nor I depend on Iljov claims.

But I did contacted him 2-3 years ago and we had a small correspondence with him where he clarified some things he presented on his website.

I can give you his email where you can ask personally about these controversial for you claims of his, since I'm not his personal follower or a forum lawyer.

Do you think the 'evidence' he presented in the video clip as a 77,000 year old inscription that read "Makedonia" is wrong or just an exaggeration? Is that what you read from the rock,"Makedonia"?

I know a scientifical methodology called Radiocarbon dating to determine the age of carbonaceous materials, but I don't know if there is a posibility to date the inscriptions itself only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radiocarbon_dating

If he made such radiocarbon dating of the rock and the result was unbelievable 77.000 years than he does make an argument of this, doesn't he?

There are some similarities in the name Makedonia and the inscriptions he presented but I'm not a specialist for deciphering such things, so my comment wouldn't have any sense.

I would not call that particular language 'Macedonian' or the inscription signs.
But I am sure there was a common culture and developed civilization on the Balkans thousands of years ago and such example is Vinca, where Macedonia as a region falls into this segment.

Maybe not up 77.000 years but 7.000 for sure.

77,000 years, back in the Neanderthal days. An extreme view is one thing, but making these statements obliges the author to show supportive evidence and logic. I think we need to always criticise what we produce as Macedonians, at least for these particular assertions that are so 'adventurous' and uncorroborated, yet presented on our TV channels as 'the' reason why we should be proud of our name. The dushman's favour is already granted, and, it does nothing to further the Macedonian Cause.

I agree, it's our duty to help and improve common knowledge but in my opinion the Macedonian Cause can not be a tool for restricting or approving historical or scientifical researches even though some may look 'adventurous'.

[Serdarot]

...

77,000 years, back in the Neanderthal days...

SoM, you were described as "a very serious Historian", so let first clear something

when we talk about "77 000 years ago", or 50 000 years ago, or 10 000 years ago...

you have a picture of:

- high developed civilisations who made some impresive works, megalithic cities(with stones we can not cut and move today), pyramides, palaces (of marmour and other hard stone(s))

or

- half-apes, humanoid creatures but not Humans, neandertals and etc, without civilisation and science?

or something third, foruth, fifth...

[Sovius]

I believe Iljov’s work should be enjoyed for what it is and dis-employed for what it isn’t. If he’s inspired people to start pursuing lines of reasoning more in tune with contemporary evidence then his work has merit within the confines of speculation. It would be fatal to treat his present output as scientifically relevent in a formal response concerning Macedonian cultural continuity. There are piles of genetic studies which clearly demonstrate the biological continuity of indigenous Southeastern Europeans in the region since the Gravettian Period. You can’t defeat what cannot be reduced any further.

[TrueMacedonian]

I think that sf hit the nail on the head. Macedonian's today are going to 77,000 year old extremes to try and prove they have a place in history so as to prove our neighbors wrong. It's one thing to have a theory but to make claims for 77,000 years ago then I would love Iljov to get up off his ass and present these strikingly insane theories to the academic masses and prove the entire world wrong that Macedonians were not cave-men but were always Macedonians and had a written language and were as developed as the coming Phonecians or Egyptians.
There has to be a fine line somewhere. I am shocked that some of you would actually defend this. And then to see this;

The views of Western historians and political ideologists are ALL biased against Macedonian indigenous continuity and a linguistic connection would be considered a fairytale regardless of the evidence.

should make us wonder if guys like Iljov, Popov, Bogov, and whoever else are the problems for the Macedonian Cause and give cause for Western Academic circles to view Macedonia's "historians" as desperados and crackpots in search of proving we existed for millenias like our imposter hellene neighbors to the south.

[Serdarot]

...
There has to be a fine line somewhere. I am shocked that some of you would actually defend this. And then to see this;

should make us wonder if guys like Iljov, Popov, Bogov, and whoever else are the problems for the Macedonian Cause and give cause for Western Academic circles to view Macedonia's "historians" as desperados and crackpots in search of proving we existed for millenias like our imposter hellene neighbors to the south.

- in the noighbourhood we have idiots like Deretikj and Dimitrov, not so few of them, in almost each country.

No1 in the world is making some big deal about them.

And their theories and work are in service of spreading some megalomanic policies, what can couse serious complications in the region.

For diference, Iljov is not claiming some historic rights to rule over the half or whole of the world

More serius: dude, you can try ignore the "we are the cradle" part, if he is claiming that, concentrate on hard evidence.

He say that on some sign he can read Makedonia? - ok, let make further work on it, and about the datings / period of creation, let them research and discuss.

- radioactive carbon datings can be realy a problem, when the numbers are not "compatable" with the "oficial" (west-european /"western-world") version of history. but they are here, and this is not a single case. ("problematic" datings)
the used color is analised, and it will show with good accuracy how old is the used "material", but that doesnt always have to mean that the sign is so old.

so more researches, pls, and not inqusition

btw, edna moja "zelena":

- tie sho vervat vo oficijalnata istorija nemat kopano. (najverojatno ni so lopata, kamoli so chekan i dleto )

[Soldier of Macedon]

I can give you his email where you can ask personally about these controversial for you claims of his, since I'm not his personal follower or a forum lawyer.

Thanks Bratot, I can locate his contact details also, I am sure that won't be a problem. I would much rather he make his explanations in public for all to see rather than by private correspondence. There is no excuse for why he hasn't done this yet, apart from lack of proper corroboration that he is willing to put up for criticism. Furthermore, how serious is one to take such individuals that need to be asked for supportive evidence and logic?

If he made such radiocarbon dating of the rock and the result was unbelievable 77.000 years than he does make an argument of this, doesn't he?

I don't dispute the age of the rock, what I can't accept (without support and corroboration) is his claim that the scratches on the rock write "Macedonia".

There are some similarities in the name Makedonia and the inscriptions he presented but I'm not a specialist for deciphering such things, so my comment wouldn't have any sense.

What are they, I mean, the similarities? I don't see any. And I won't comment in favour of anything I cannot even make sense of myself. Bratot, he is trying to claim that the Neanderthals wrote and said "Macedonia" in basically the same way we do today. I find that comical, I find you a quite logical person so how you find nothing wrong or counter-productive in this is a mystery to me.

........the Macedonian Cause can not be a tool for restricting or approving historical or scientifical researches even though some may look 'adventurous'.

Nor should it be used as a vehicle to push these theories which not only look, but are indeed, very 'adventurous'. I will put it bluntly, it makes us look like fools, and I find that completely unacceptable. As a 'senior' Iljov should know this all too well, yet he appears time and again on TV making these claims. We shouldn't remain silent on these issues.

.......in the noighbourhood we have idiots like Deretikj and Dimitrov, not so few of them, in almost each country.

We don't need to match them in that regard. For each idiocy they produce, we should be countering it with logic, not with idiocy of our own. Like I said before, we are better than that, it's time to get really serious about what we consider relevant to our list of arguments in favour of the Macedonian position.

He say that on some sign he can read Makedonia? - ok, let make further work on it, and about the datings / period of creation, let them research and discuss.

Why hasn't he done the work on it already, before claiming some scratch in a rock says Macedonia, during a period of time that renders such an event highly unlikely? Serdarot, can you refer me to anything in relation to a Neanderthal language and form of writing, and how that would tie into what Iljov has claimed?

[Sovius]

It should, perhaps, be noted that rocks are inorganic and cannot be dated using the (organic) C14 method. The populations that inhabited Europe 77,000 years ago were not genetically related to the populations that presently reside in Southeastern Europe. Following Iljov’s apparent line of reasoning in relation to genetic evidence, the distant ancestors of Modern Macedonians must have usurped the name Macedonia from the original Neanderthal Macedonians and all their feces throwing, bug eating glory. This horrific event would have occurred around 20,000 years ago or so.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Lol, nicely put.

[Bratot]

It should, perhaps, be noted that rocks are inorganic and cannot be dated using the (organic) C14 method. The populations that inhabited Europe 77,000 years ago were not genetically related to the populations that presently reside in Southeastern Europe. Following Iljov’s apparent line of reasoning in relation to genetic evidence, the distant ancestors of Modern Macedonians must have usurped the name Macedonia from the original Neanderthal Macedonians and all their feces throwing, bug eating glory. This horrific event would have occurred around 20,000 years ago or so.

It's not quite simple as you put it.

Carbonate rocks are made of particles (composed >50% carbonate minerals) embedded in a cement. Most carbonate rocks result from the accumulation of bioclasts created by calcareous organisms.


Radiocarbon dating is only one of the techniques of radiometric dating.

But nevermind, the point is - the age of the rock is datable.


And SoM, so far Iljov claims are avaiable to comments and critics and since he published them and I didn't saw someone to question it scientifically.
The guy has been on TV, newspapers and Internet.

If we keep the questions in this forum we won't get an answer, so contact him and invite Iljov on this forum.
If not, simply ask him the same questions in the mail.

That's the only way we get the job done without any speculations.

[Soldier of Macedon]

But nevermind, the point is - the age of the rock is datable.

That may be the case Bratot, but Iljov himself claims it as 77,000 years.

And SoM, so far Iljov claims are avaiable to comments and critics and since he published them and I didn't saw someone to question it scientifically.
The guy has been on TV, newspapers and Internet.

He has been in Macedonian media outlets, hardly available for international criticism, and I doubt any credible organisation that could provide the type of criticism we are talking about even knows his theories exist, due to his own lack of promotion.

I will take your advice on contacting him, but I am not the one who supports or promotes his works, so I think that should be their job. The people that have spoken in defence of Iljov here should already have had the answer, IMO, unless there is no decent answer to be had, which then means blind defence. Time will tell, let's see if he even responds.

[Sovius]

It's not quite simple as you put it.

True enough, the rock looked metamorphosed out of igneous rock to me, though, I believe, carbonate takes millions of years to develop into a component of sedimentary rock. Without enough artifacts to develop a system that can be weighed against other hypothetical systems, Iljov’s work remains stuck in the quagmire of conjecture. It’s too soft to throw at the Greek argument. There’s no doubt in my mind that the contemporary Macedonian language contains elements that would have been in use in the area back then, as these can be observed in the Basque language and there is a known migration path out of the greater Illyrian peninsula onto the Iberian peninsula made by populations ancestral to both Macedonians and Basques. Iljov may be 100% on target with his work on the early Neolithic artifacts, but there’s not enough evidence to prove it and there’s too much concrete evidence supporting an argument favoring population continuity to worry about it at this point in my opinion. Population geneticists have provided evidence to support the conclusion that those artifacts were made by people whose descendents would go on to make up the populations of Macedonia and other areas in the region during its ancient period and contemporary period. What an incredible discovery! I’m confident that, as more artifacts are uncovered, more researchers will be thinking along the lines that Iljov has followed, but the scientific method must be followed and there’s not enough physical evidence to label his work as either definitive or conclusive and that’s alright. It is what it is.

[Bratot]

That may be the case Bratot, but Iljov himself claims it as 77,000 years.

He has been in Macedonian media outlets, hardly available for international criticism, and I doubt any credible organisation that could provide the type of criticism we are talking about even knows his theories exist, due to his own lack of promotion.

I will take your advice on contacting him, but I am not the one who supports or promotes his works, so I think that should be their job. The people that have spoken in defence of Iljov here should already have had the answer, IMO, unless there is no decent answer to be had, which then means blind defence. Time will tell, let's see if he even responds.

I am not sure if you allude to me in your post, but if I need to clarify myself again let me know.

The reason I don't like the crucifiction of Iljov it's because I don't possess the knowledge in this segment in order to be able to judge for his claims.

But I know that it's correct to ask if I want to find out something or just from curiousity to hear a better explanation.

Keeping on to my limited knowledge and freely judge him in this forum doesn't really gives him a chance to answer or doesn't really gives me a confidence to think I'm the right in this issue.

True enough, the rock looked metamorphosed out of igneous rock to me, though, I believe, carbonate takes millions of years to develop into a component of sedimentary rock. Without enough artifacts to develop a system that can be weighed against other hypothetical systems, Iljov’s work remains stuck in the quagmire of conjecture. It’s too soft to throw at the Greek argument. There’s no doubt in my mind that the contemporary Macedonian language contains elements that would have been in use in the area back then, as these can be observed in the Basque language and there is a known migration path out of the greater Illyrian peninsula onto the Iberian peninsula made by populations ancestral to both Macedonians and Basques. Iljov may be 100% on target with his work on the early Neolithic artifacts, but there’s not enough evidence to prove it and there’s too much concrete evidence supporting an argument favoring population continuity to worry about it at this point in my opinion. Population geneticists have provided evidence to support the conclusion that those artifacts were made by people whose descendents would go on to make up the populations of Macedonia and other areas in the region during its ancient period and contemporary period. What an incredible discovery! I’m confident that, as more artifacts are uncovered, more researchers will be thinking along the lines that Iljov has followed, but the scientific method must be followed and there’s not enough physical evidence to label his work as either definitive or conclusive and that’s alright. It is what it is.

From his educational background I expect from him to have some knowledge, at least for the techniques of measuring the age of such artifacts.

If I was to question his claims I would be more likely to start questioning his 'translation' of the inscription on the rock.

I don't agree with the term he inforce as 'Macedonian' alphabet for prahistory inscriptions since in my opinion a certain very old culture and a language can not be determinated by one regional term and we shouldn't reach for such claims.

It's the same with the Vinca culture which regional center was found in nowadays Serbia but cannot be called a "continuity of Serbian language" just because of it.

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am not sure if you allude to me in your post, but if I need to clarify myself again let me know.

I was alluding to yourself, Serdarot, Indigen and Dimko. You guys are defending (or at the very least allowing without due criticism) his work without having a proper understanding of what Iljov is proposing. I would think that, for his work to warrant such a defence, there would be something that you guys already know or have looked into, which would give you the confidence to do so. Personally, if I wasn't fully confident in something, I would not defend it.

The reason I don't like the crucifiction of Iljov it's because I don't possess the knowledge in this segment in order to be able to judge for his claims.

We don't need to possess any special knowledge when someone claims the Neanderthals engraved "Macedonia" into a rock, common sense demands corroboration. Iljov is not new to the scene, he has had plenty of time to provide support for some of his theories, he hasn't bothered. And now the guy is on national television in Macedonia telling people about an inscription from 77,000 years ago, no proof, no support, no logic, just himself, a rock and a piece of paper. He deserves every bit of criticism he receives.

Keeping on to my limited knowledge and freely judge him in this forum doesn't really gives him a chance to answer or doesn't really gives me a confidence to think I'm the right in this issue.

To each his own Bratot. His works have circulated around the internet for years, they have been quetioned time and again on various forums, are you telling me not one Macedonian, Greek or other interested person has asked him for corroboration in all of this time? I find that hard to believe. I remain a sceptic of his works, and with his latest Neaderthal theory, I remain a huge one.

[Sovius]

From his educational background I expect from him to have some knowledge, at least for the techniques of measuring the age of such artifacts.

I believe inscriptions are typically dated by measuring the age of carbon based materials found at an archeological site. If this rock was truly inscribed 77,000 years ago, he would be presenting evidence that Neanderthals had the capacity to create repeating geometric patterns, which would then have value for researchers.

If I was to question his claims I would be more likely to start questioning his 'translation' of the inscription on the rock.

That’s just it. One can’t prove or disprove his decipherments of the inscriptions he’s published online. Rather ingenious, really. What he’s doing with the Macedonia Rock is like the reverse of what psychological researchers do with Rorschach tests. The power of suggestion. Now, if the Rock inscription was from a much later period in prehistory, he would at least not be contradicting genetic evidence.

I don't agree with the term he inforce as 'Macedonian' alphabet for prahistory inscriptions since in my opinion a certain very old culture and a language can not be determinated by one regional term and we shouldn't reach for such claims.

It's the same with the Vinca culture which regional center was found in nowadays Serbia but cannot be called a "continuity of Serbian language" just because of it.

I agree, but by virtue of biological continuity there must be some degree of cultural continuity and that means linguistic continuity to some extent or another. Words and grammatical structure evolve over time. Sometimes they change beyond recognition . Sometimes they don’t. There’s invention and disuse, as well, of course. Pelasgian seems to be a neutral term that retains historical relevance, conveys indigenousness, and maintains some sense of objectivity, which is important. Cite a passage or two written by Justinus and Voila! You’re back where you started, just not at the same place.

[Dimko-piperkata]

Vasil Iljov - The Empire of Aleksandar Makedonski

YouTube - Vasil Iljov - The Empire of Aleksandar Makedonski