The Ancient Macedonian Language

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  • Karposh
    Member
    • Aug 2015
    • 863

    The Ancient Macedonian Language

    I just want to highlight something about the era in which the Macedonians made their mark on world history. The concept of having an international or common language for people as an intermediary means of communication was very important to the ancient world. What is commonly referred to as a “lingua franca”, was a necessity to facilitate cooperation between the various ancient peoples.

    It’s easy to imagine that the advent of diplomatic negotiations, trade and sharing ideas is a fairly recent phenomenon. However, this has been going on for thousands of years. The only difference between now and then is that we take it for granted that English has suddenly become the default international language. Before the turn of last century, French was the default international language. It was the language of the educated classes and the language that all the diplomats were using. Not that long ago, a new language, Esperanto, was being devised and prepared for international usage. I remember my mum’s uncle, God rest his soul, could speak in Esperanto. These days, English has taken over for obvious reasons. It’s not even the language of the educated classes. Non-English speaking people can almost certainly pick up a basic understanding of English by watching Hollywood movies and shows. It just so happens that most of the world wants to be able to communicate in this language.

    In Alexander’s time, when the Macedonians were conquering the world, the ancient Greek language, was the lingua franca for most people of the eastern Mediterranean. In the middle to Far East, it was Aramaic, the language that Jesus spoke. However, and this needs to be stressed, just because a certain language was accepted as a common language of commerce and diplomacy, it didn’t mean that everyone could converse in that language. It was usually a small number of people such as merchants and diplomats who, through necessity, would have had to learn the common language.

    The flourishing of Ancient Greek was facilitated by the fact that Greek colonies were spread across the Mediterranean from the southern coast of France all the way to the Black Sea coast and Asia Minor who were already trading in this language. The other thing that Ancient Greek had going for it, in contrast to most of the other ancient languages, was the fact that it could be written down. It had its own script. Fast forward 2,300 years and you could be excused for thinking everyone was Greek back then. The museums are filled with artefacts bearing Greek inscriptions, originating from all over the Mediterranean basin. That doesn’t necessarily mean that the inhabitants from these far flung regions, that produced these artefacts, were Greeks. It simply means that the ancient peoples were expressing themselves by utilising the available script of the time. By the same logic, artefacts written in Greek that have been uncovered in Macedonia do not prove the Ancient Macedonians were Greek. Likewise, digging up artefacts with Greek inscriptions in Bulgaria does not prove that the Thracians were Greek. Ditto the Illyrians.

    Even before Alexander’s time, Greek was the language of commerce, education and literature and was readily accessible to the educated public. When Alexander adopted this language in his empire, he did so with the knowledge that, for a long time before him, various non-Greek speaking people were already communicating in this language. It just made things easier. In addition, it simply wasn’t worth the risk of revolts against Macedonian rule by imposing an unknown language on the local populace. A fascinating case is the example of the Romans. Unlike most of the ancient peoples, the Romans had their own Latin script, yet they chose to write exclusively in Greek right up until the first half of the 2nd Century BC. Contrary to Greek claims, Alexander did not spread Greek language and culture in the east. It was already there.

    I do not accept that the Macedonians, in general, spoke Greek as their native tongue. There are enough examples, preserved by the ancient authors, that clearly speak of another, not often spoken it would seem, and almost forgotten language which, nonetheless, existed within Alexander’s camp. In the preserved anecdotes, they identified this language as Macedonian and it would seem that it was mainly spoken amongst the ordinary Macedonian foot soldiers of the Pezhetairoi units (pronounced Pesh-e-teri), who did not receive a formal education. These were the simple yet rough and tough peasant folk from the hills, who, as described by Alexander himself, tended flocks of sheep for a living and dressed in animal skins. The cream of the Macedonian army, they were conscripted from all parts of Macedonia, from the mostly rural, village communities that made up the majority of Macedonian society. The unifying bond that made them identify as Macedonians was their common Macedonian tongue, which, no doubt, had its own dialects.

    The contrary is evident amongst the immediate entourage of Alexander. These were the privileged few, belonging to the Macedonian aristocracy, who had the opportunity to get an education and would have been educated in Greek. Many of these would have gone through the system of the well-known Macedonian institution of Royal Pages. The sons of prominent nobles, the Royal Pages received an education at court and developed a personal attachment to the king. Many of them made up part of Alexander’s Companion Cavalry and Royal Hypaspists units.

    Judging from the ancient sources, the Macedonian language, although rendered almost obsolete for Alexander and his companions through neglect and the adoption of the common language, continued to be spoken by the ordinary Macedonian soldier. This is evident during the trial of Philotas where Alexander can be clearly seen trying to win points with the assembled Macedonian army when he asks Philotas whether he will speak in his native tongue before them.

    Although their native tongue was quickly becoming a secondary language for the Macedonian elite, it was, nevertheless, the language that they often reverted to in times of crisis or heightened tensions. This is evident in the preserved incident with Alexander’s foster brother Cleitus, where the ancient authors made a point of stressing that, in the heat of the moment, Alexander shouted in Macedonian. The obvious allusion is hard to miss. The implication being that the drunk and enraged Alexander, feeling that his life was in danger, suddenly dropped his Greek façade and reverted to his primal and instinctive native tongue, Macedonian. Otherwise, why would Plutarch feel the need to specifically single out the usage of the Macedonian language? What was so unusual about this that it warranted making a point of it?

    Clearly, judging from these two episodes, the adopted common language had precedence in Alexander’s court and the usage of Macedonian was relegated to the uneducated Macedonian rank and file only, who could not speak Greek.

    We also have the example of Eumenes of Cardia, a rare case of an ethnic Greek being in a commanding position of Macedonians. Eumenes achieved his position after the death of Alexander as a result of his close personal friendship with him. Out of respect for Alexander, the Macedonians under Eumenes’ command allowed him to be their superior. Being in a commanding position, he was very conscious that if the Macedonians were going to follow his orders then he would need to learn Macedonian. The ancient authors speak of Eumenes being greeted in Macedonian by the troops, a sign of affection, and of him responding in kind. No doubt, as is only natural, through exposure with the Macedonians, he would have picked up some basic Macedonian. Yet, we are told by the ancient authors, that even he made sure that when an important message needed to be relayed to the Macedonian army, he had to make certain that it was delivered by a man fluent in Macedonian. In other words, Eumenes had need of a Macedonian interpreter to communicate with his own troops. These are just three examples. There are others but I won’t get into them. I think I have made my point.

    If nothing more, then at the very least, the following passage by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus describing the trial of Philotas should give Greeks today some pause for thought. I particularly love this passage because it is like old Rufus is looking down the barrel of time itself and specifically addressing today’s loud-mouthed Greeks and their stubborn convictions.

    “The Macedonians are going to judge your case, please state whether you will use your native language before them,” asked Alexander. “Besides the Macedonians,” replied Philotas, “there are many present who, I think, will find what I am going to say easier to understand if I use the language you yourself have been using, your purpose, I believe, being only to enable more people to understand you.”

    Comment

    • Poligiros
      Banned
      • Mar 2014
      • 121

      Originally posted by Karposh View Post

      In Alexander’s time, when the Macedonians were conquering the world, the ancient Greek language, was the lingua franca for most people of the eastern Mediterranean.

      The flourishing of Ancient Greek was facilitated by the fact that Greek colonies were spread across the Mediterranean from the southern coast of France all the way to the Black Sea coast and Asia Minor who were already trading in this language. The other thing that Ancient Greek had going for it, in contrast to most of the other ancient languages, was the fact that it could be written down. It had its own script. Fast forward 2,300 years and you could be excused for thinking everyone was Greek back then. The museums are filled with artefacts bearing Greek inscriptions, originating from all over the Mediterranean basin.

      Even before Alexander’s time, Greek was the language of commerce, education and literature and was readily accessible to the educated public. When Alexander adopted this language in his empire, he did so with the knowledge that,

      I do not accept that the Macedonians, in general, spoke Greek as their native tongue. There are enough examples, preserved by the ancient authors, that clearly speak of another, not often spoken it would seem, and almost forgotten language which, nonetheless, existed within Alexander’s camp..”
      Can you please provide some evidence of such bold statements? Here is a logical, balanced view:



      Language

      At first sight, it appears that the inhabitants of the Macedonian alluvial plain spoke Greek. A fourth-century curse tablet from Pella, published in 1994, is written in Northwest Greek, and later inscriptions are in Attic Greek. Many personal names (like Philippos and Alexandros, Zeus and Herakles) are Greek as well. That the Macedonians spoke Greek, looks like an inevitable conclusion.
      However, there is some room for doubt.

      "None of this forces us to say that the Macedonians did not speak Greek, but it leaves the possibility that things were not what they seem. There is room for skepticism"

      Words that have a counterpart in Greek. For example, the Macedonian title Nikat�r ("victor") is obviously the equivalent of Greek Nik�t�r. Usually, the Macedonian words are voiced and lack aspiration whereas Greek words are voiceless and aspirated: for example, Greek aith�r is the equivalent of Macedonian ad� ("sky").
      Words that do not resemble a Greek word: sarissa ("lance"), abagna ("rose"), peliganes ("senate"). It is certain that these words are Indo-European.

      At opposing case scenario, I agree with this statement "Macedonian and Greek were related but different, but it is not certain whether they were different languages (which means that they have a different grammar and syntaxis) or dialects"

      In my opinion, ancient Macedonian and other ancient Greek dialects were probably similar in alphabetical format, but differing in dialect.

      Please provide some reputable, scholarly analysis when making statements about ancient Macedonian language, history for discussion.

      Regards,

      Comment

      • Karposh
        Member
        • Aug 2015
        • 863

        You say in your opinion Macedonian and Greek were similar languages but differed in dialect. You base your opinion on the Pella curse tablet and other artefacts. That's fine, that's your opinion. My opinion is that they were two distinct and separate languages. And I base my opinion on the writings of Quintus Curtius and Plutarch.

        Comment

        • George S.
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2009
          • 10116

          Please explain to me the timeline of history who came after whom?macedonians can claim prehistoric existenceThe greeks came after.ITs a fact that greeks didnt understand macedonian language.
          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
          GOTSE DELCEV

          Comment

          • King Niko
            Junior Member
            • Sep 2015
            • 81

            This might seem silly, but was ancient Macedonian written in Greek chars? If so why does Macedonia today write in Cyrillic?

            I have always been confused and never knew where to look and looking for Macedonians to explain to me.

            Do not confuse that with me saying anything about the Macedonian identity, Macedonians I think today and ancient ones have no connection to greeks.

            Thanks for any reply!

            Comment

            • TheNikoWhiteIch
              Member
              • Oct 2014
              • 111

              Originally posted by King Niko View Post
              This might seem silly, but was ancient Macedonian written in Greek chars? If so why does Macedonia today write in Cyrillic?

              I have always been confused and never knew where to look and looking for Macedonians to explain to me.

              Do not confuse that with me saying anything about the Macedonian identity, Macedonians I think today and ancient ones have no connection to greeks.

              Thanks for any reply!
              There wasn't a distinct Macedonian alphabet back then. We see the same thing with the Thracians. They used the Greek alphabet but wrote in a very distinct language.

              Comment

              • TheNikoWhiteIch
                Member
                • Oct 2014
                • 111

                Originally posted by Poligiros View Post
                Can you please provide some evidence of such bold statements?
                By what means are these 'bold statements'? The exact way of "speaking Macedonian" has already been examined earlier in this thread, and from that it is clear that it was treated as a distinct language, not a dialect. Believe what you will, but the literature in defense of this position exists and is readily available.

                Comment

                • Soldier of Macedon
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 13670

                  Originally posted by King Niko View Post
                  This might seem silly, but was ancient Macedonian written in Greek chars? If so why does Macedonia today write in Cyrillic?
                  Ancient Macedonian (like Thracian and Illyrian) was not a literate language. Most of its words were recorded by foreigners. All of these peoples used the Greek alphabet (based on Phoenician) and language for trade and administration at some point in antiquity. Macedonians use Cyrillic because it was developed specifically to suit their language.
                  In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                  Comment

                  • King Niko
                    Junior Member
                    • Sep 2015
                    • 81

                    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                    Ancient Macedonian (like Thracian and Illyrian) was not a literate language. Most of its words were recorded by foreigners. All of these peoples used the Greek alphabet (based on Phoenician) and language for trade and administration and some point in antiquity. Macedonians use Cyrillic because it was developed specifically to suit their language.
                    Okay thank you answered it perfectly!

                    By what means are these 'bold statements'? The exact way of "speaking Macedonian" has already been examined earlier in this thread, and from that it is clear that it was treated as a distinct language, not a dialect. Believe what you will, but the literature in defense of this position exists and is readily available.
                    Same too you thank you!

                    Comment

                    • TheNikoWhiteIch
                      Member
                      • Oct 2014
                      • 111

                      Hesychius Glossary -- Attested Macedonian Words

                      I've been doing some digging around and found an on-line version of Hesychius' Glossary, which made searching for Macedonian words easier. Now, there are various versions available for download as PDF and even those seem to differ from one another, so this may or may not be missing a few words. Here's the link:



                      The attested words are marked with either "Macedonian" or "Amerias"; the latter was a Macedonian lexicographer.

                      Hesychius Glossary -- Macedonian Words:
                      ἄβαγνα = ῥόδα εν Μακεδόνες = Rose in Macedonian
                      ἀβαρκνᾷ = κομᾷ τὲ Μακεδόνες = Hair in Macedonian (? Acc. Dr. Heinrich Tischner)
                      ἀβαρύ = ὀρίγανον Μακεδόνες = Oregano in Macedonian
                      ἀλογεῖ = σπεῖσον Μακεδόνες = Pouring out (? Acc. Dr. Heinrich Tischner)
                      ἀβλόη = σπένδε Μακεδόνες = To pour out (? Acc. Dr. Heinrich Tischner)
                      ἀβροῦτες = ὀφρῦς εν Μακεδόνες = Brow(s) in Macedonian
                      ἄγημα = τὸ προϊὸν τοῦ βασιλέως τάγμα ἐλεφάντων καὶ ἱππέων καὶ πεζῶν, οἱ δὲ τῶν ἀρίστων τῆς Μακεδονικῆς συντάξεως (?)
                      ἀγκαλίς = ἄχθος. καὶ δρέπανον Μακεδόνες = Sickle in Macedonian
                      ἄδδαι = ῥυμοὶ, ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων = Poles/Drawbar in Macedonian
                      ἀδῆ = οὐρανός. Μακεδόνες = Heavens in Macedonian
                      ἄδισκον = κυκεῶνα. Μακεδόνες = Potion/Concoction in Macedonian
                      ἄδραια = αἰθρία Μακεδόνες = Clear sky in Macedonian
                      Ἀέροπες = ἔθνος, Τροιζῆνα κατοικοῦντες. καὶ ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ γένος τι. καὶ ὄρνεά τινα = A Macedonian tribe
                      Ἄθως = ὄρος ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ = A mountain in Macedonia
                      ἀκόντιον = δοράτιον μικρὰ λόγχη. ῥάχιν δὲ Μακεδόνες. καὶ στρατεύματος μέρος Ἀγριανῶν Αἰολεῖς. = Spine in Macedonian
                      ἀκρέα = παῖς θήλεια. Μακεδόνες. = Girl/Daughter(?) in Macedonian
                      ἀκρουνοί = ὅροι, ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων = Mountains(?) or Boundaries(?) in Macedonian
                      ἄλιζα = ἡ λεύκη τὸ δένδρον. Μακεδόνες = The whites of the trees(?) in Macedonian
                      ἀλίη = κάπρος. Μακεδόνες = Boar (? Acc. Dr. Heinrich Tischner)
                      Ἀνθεμουσία = τάγμα τι παρὰ Μακεδόσιν ἐξ Ἀνθεμοῦντος, πόλεως Μακεδονίας (?)
                      ἄξος = ὕλη, παρὰ Μακεδόσιν = Timber/Wood in Macedonian
                      ἀορτής = [ξιφιστής S,] ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων [ἄγγος] [ἄγγος δερμάτειον ἱματίων] (?)
                      ἀράντισιν = ἐρινύσι. Μακεδόνες = The Furies or Erinyes in Macedonia
                      ἀργιόπους = ἀετός. Μακεδόνες = Eagle in Macedonian
                      Ἄρητος = Ἡρακλῆς, παρὰ Μακεδόσιν = Aretos: Herakles in Macedonian
                      ἀρκόν = σχολήν. Μακεδόνες = Lazy/Idle in Macedonian
                      ἀρφύς = ἱμάς. Μακεδόνες = rope/belt in Macedonian
                      ἄσπιλος = χείμαῤῥος, ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων = Torrent/Current/Stream in Macedonian
                      βαβρήν = ὑπόστασις ἐλαίου, κατὰ Μακεδόνας = Leftovers of olive oil in Macedonian
                      βαδάς = κίναιδος. ὡς Ἀμερίας = Catamite
                      Βαθάλη = κρήνη. Ἀμερίας = Fountain
                      βαθάρα = πυκλιή, Μακεδόνες. πυρλός, Ἀθαμᾶνες -- Google Translate shows "varieties of" for "πυκλιή"
                      βαυβυκᾶνας = βαίβυκος πελεκᾶνος Φιλίτας (fr. 47 K.) Ἀμερίας δὲ βαυβυκᾶνας = Pelican (? Acc. Dr. Heinrich Tischner)
                      βηματίζει = τὸ τοῖς ποσὶ μετρεῖν. ἔστι δέ πως ἡ λέξις Μακεδονική = To pace off (?)
                      βίῤῥοξ = δασύ. Μακεδόνες = Shaggy/Hairy
                      Γάμψηλοι = πόλις Μακεδονίας = a city in Macedonia
                      γάρκαν = ῥάβδον. Μακεδόνες = Stick/Branch in Macedonian
                      γόλα = ἔντερα. Μακεδόνες = entrails/guts/intestines in Macedonian
                      γοτάν = ὗν. Μακεδόνες = pig in Macedonian
                      γυλλάς = εἶδος ποτηρίου, παρὰ Μακεδόσιν = a type of cup in Macedonian
                      γῶπας = κολοιούς. Μακεδόνες = Jackdaw in Macedonian
                      δαίτας = μεριστάς Μακεδόνες = a Waiter(?)
                      δανῶν = κακοποιῶν. κτείνων. Μακεδόνες = Thug/Criminal & Killer in Macedonian (?)
                      Δάῤῥων = Μακεδονικὸς δαίμων, ᾧ ὑπὲρ τῶν νοσούντων εὔχονται = A Macedonian daemon that gives health when prayed to (?)
                      δάρυλλος = ἡ δρῦς, ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων = Oak (? Acc. Dr. Heinrich Tischner)
                      δρεπανηφόρα ἅρματα = τοὺς Μακεδόνας φασὶ πρώτους χρήσασθαι = The foremost Macedonian (χρήσασθαι?)
                      δρῆες = στρουθοί Μακεδόνες = Sparrows (? Acc. Dr. Heinrich Tischner)
                      Δύστρος = ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων μήν = A Macedonian month
                      δώραξ = σπλήν ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων = Spleen/Thorax in Macedonian
                      Ἔορτος = ἢ Ἐορδός· Μακεδών, ἀπὸ ἔθνους = A Macedonian tribe
                      ἐπιδειπνίς = Μακεδονικὸς κώθων, ἥδυσμα. †ἐθισμός = A Macedonian dessert (?)
                      Ζειρηνίς = Ἀφροδίτη ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ = Aphrodite in Macedonia
                      Ἠμαθίη = Μακεδονία = Macedonia (Imathia)
                      Θαῦμος ή Θαῦλος = Αρης Μακεδόνιος = Thaulos or Thaumus: Ares in Macedonia
                      θούριδες = νύμφαι. Μοῦσαι. Μακεδόνες = Nymphs or Muses in Macedonian
                      ἰζέλα = ἀγαθῇ τύχῃ. Μακεδόνες = good wishes(?) or luck(?) in Macedonian
                      ἴλαξ = ἡ πρῖνος, ὡς Ῥωμαῖοι καὶ Μακεδόνες = Helm Oak (Ilex) same with Romans as with Macedonians(?)
                      ἰν δέᾳ = μεσημβρίᾳ. Μακεδόνες = midday in Macedonian
                      Ἰχναίην χώραν = τὴν Μακεδονίαν, ἔνθα τὸ μαντεῖον ὁ Ἀπόλλων κατέσχε, καὶ τιμᾶται = The place where Apollo is praised(?)
                      κἄγχαρμον = τὸ τὴν λόγχην ἄνω ἔχον. [Μακεδόνες] = Having the lance upwards (Macedonian)
                      καλαῤῥυγαί = τάφροι. Ἀμερίας = Trenches/Moats/Ditches
                      κάλιθος = οἶνος. Ἀμερίας = Wine
                      καμαστίς = μέτρον τι. Ἀμερίας = a measurement
                      κάραβος = ὑπὸ δὲ Μακεδόνων ἡ πύλη. = door in Macedonian(?)
                      καρπαία = ὄρχησις Μακεδονική = Macedonian dance(?)
                      κίκεῤῥοι = ὦχροι. Μακεδόνες = Pale in Macedonian(?)
                      Κισσοῦς = ὄρος ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ. καὶ πόλις Θρᾴκης = A mountain in Macedonia; city in Thrace
                      κομμάραι ἢ κομάραι = καρίδες. Μακεδόνες = Shrimps in Macedonian
                      Κόραννος = βασιλεὺς Μακεδονίας = King(?) or Kingdom(?) in Macedonian
                      κυνοῦπες = ἄρκτος. Μακεδόνες = Bear in Macedonian
                      λακεδάμα = ὕδωρ ἁλμυρὸν ἄλικι ἐπικεχυμένον, ὃ πίνουσιν οἱ τῶν Μακεδόνων ἀγροῖκοι = A saltwater with garlic that Macedonian peasants drink (?)
                      λείβηθρον = ῥεῖθρον. ὀχετόν. κρουνόν, καὶ τόπος ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ καὶ κατὰ τὸν Ἑλικῶνα = River; Stream; Gully; Riverbed; Place in Macedonia
                      Λυγκαίη = πόλις Μακεδονίας = City in Macedonia (What is the etymology?)
                      Μακετία = ἡ Μακεδονία = Macedonia
                      ματτύης = ἡ μὲν φωνὴ Μακεδονική, ὄρνις. καὶ τὰ ἐκ τοῦ ζωμοῦ αὐτοῦ λάχανα περιφερόμενα = --no idea how to translate this--
                      Μυσίων Ὀλυμπίων = ἐπεὶ πλείους εἰσὶν Ὄλυμποι Μακεδονίας καὶ Θετταλίας· = --no idea how to translate this--
                      Νῦσα = καὶ Νυσήϊον· ὄρος, οὐ καθ' ἕνα τόπον. ἔστι γὰρ Μακεδονίας = A mountain in Macedonia(?)
                      Ξανθικά = ἑορτὴ Μακεδόνων, Ξανδικοῦ μηνὸς ἢ Ξανθικοῦ ἀγομένη. = A Macedonian festival, month, and feast(?)
                      Ὀλύμπια δώματ' ἔχοντες = ὅ ἐστιν ὄρος ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ = --no idea how to translate this--
                      Ὄλυμπος = καὶ ὄρος ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ = Mountains in Macedonia
                      παραός = ἀετὸς ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων = eagle in Macedonian
                      Πελλαῖον = [φαιόν. καὶ] Μακεδονικόν = Gray(?) in Macedonian
                      περί[πε]τ[ε]ια καὶ περιῆτες = περιῆτες μὲν οἱ φύλακες, περί[πε]τ[ε]ια δὲ Μακεδονικὴ ἑορτή = --no idea how to translate this--
                      πέχαρι = ἔλαφος. Ἀμερίας = Deer
                      πίγγαν = νεόσσιον. Ἀμερίας. γλαυκόν = Owl(?)
                      Πιερίδες = αἱ Μοῦσαι ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ = The Muses in Macedonia(?)
                      Πιέρι = ἡ ἀκρώρεια τοῦ ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ ὄρους = the peaks of the mountains in Macedonia(?)
                      Πίπλ(ε)ιαι = αἱ Μοῦσαι ἐν τῷ Μακεδονικῷ Ὀλύμπῳ, ἀπὸ κρήνης Πιπλείας = Mueses in Macedonia; Goddesses of the Spring Pipleia(?)
                      ῥάματα = βο[ς]τρύδια. σταφυλίς. Μακεδόνες = a fungus on grapes and bunch of grapes in Macedonian(?)
                      ῥοῦτο = τοῦτο. Μακεδόνες = "this" in Macedonian(?)
                      σάριςα ή σάρισσα = δόρυ μακρόν, εἶδος ἀκοντίου Ἑλληνικοῦ, σπάθη βαρβαρική. Μακεδόνες = long spear, a Greek javelin, a barbarian saber. Macedonian
                      σαυᾶδαι = σαῦδοι. Ἀμερίας τοὺς σειλείνους οὕτω καλεῖσθαί φησιν ὑπὸ Μακεδόνων = Silenus in Macedonia(?)
                      σκοῖδος = ἀρχή τις παρὰ Μακεδόσι τεταγμένη ἐπὶ τῶν δικαστηρίων = The Supreme Court in Macedonia(?)
                      σμώγη = ῥανίς. τὸ τυχόν. Ἀμερίας βούγλωσσον = a drop; an ox tongue(?)
                      Στρεψαῖοι = ἔθνος περὶ Μακεδονίαν = Macedonian tribe
                      σχερόν = κῦμα ἕτοιμον. Ἀμερίας = beach waves(?)
                      ταγόναγα = Μακεδονική τις ἀρχή = The Macedonian Administration(?)
                      τεθολώς = ἀνάπλεως. Ἀμερίας = --no idea how to translate this--
                      ὑφαίνει = ἐμπρῆσαι. ὑφᾶται. Ἀμερίας = --no idea how to translate this--
                      Χαλαστραίων συῶν = [πόλις τῆς Μακεδονίας καὶ λίμνη ἔνθα τὸ Χαλαστραῖον νίτρον γεγένηται] = a city and lake in Macedonia where ... --can't translate the rest of it--

                      I've translated some of these from on-line encyclopedias, but I couldn't get all of it translated in a way that makes sense. If any of the members that understand Greek can translate that as well as provide any corrections, It'd be greatly appreciated!

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                      • Amphipolis
                        Banned
                        • Aug 2014
                        • 1328

                        Sorry, these are too many, though many of them have been discussed in various threads of the forum (use search engine). Please, give me 5 or 10 that are the most difficult or you're most urgently interested in.

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                        • TheNikoWhiteIch
                          Member
                          • Oct 2014
                          • 111

                          Originally posted by Amphipolis View Post
                          Sorry, these are too many, though many of them have been discussed in various threads of the forum (use search engine). Please, give me 5 or 10 that are the most difficult or you're most urgently interested in.
                          The ones that are most difficult for me are:

                          1. ἀβαρκνᾷ = κομᾷ τὲ Μακεδόνες
                          2. ἀλογεῖ = σπεῖσον Μακεδόνες
                          3. ἀβλόη = σπένδε Μακεδόνες
                          4. Ἰχναίην χώραν = τὴν Μακεδονίαν, ἔνθα τὸ μαντεῖον ὁ Ἀπόλλων κατέσχε, καὶ τιμᾶται
                          5. Λυγκαίη = πόλις Μακεδονίας (etymology of Λυγκαίη if possible)
                          6. ματτύης = ἡ μὲν φωνὴ Μακεδονική, ὄρνις. καὶ τὰ ἐκ τοῦ ζωμοῦ αὐτοῦ λάχανα περιφερόμενα
                          7. Μυσίων Ὀλυμπίων = ἐπεὶ πλείους εἰσὶν Ὄλυμποι Μακεδονίας καὶ Θετταλίας·
                          8. Ὀλύμπια δώματ' ἔχοντες = ὅ ἐστιν ὄρος ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ
                          9. τεθολώς = ἀνάπλεως. Ἀμερίας
                          10. Χαλαστραίων συῶν = πόλις τῆς Μακεδονίας καὶ λίμνη ἔνθα τὸ Χαλαστραῖον νίτρον γεγένηται
                          Last edited by TheNikoWhiteIch; 10-16-2015, 05:32 PM.

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                          • Amphipolis
                            Banned
                            • Aug 2014
                            • 1328

                            1. ἀβαρκνᾷ = κομᾷ τὲ Μακεδόνες

                            It would be “hair” (κόμαι). Most suggest this may be misspelled or distorted (many versions of the lexicon note this). So this may be a misunderstanding

                            2. ἀλογεῖ = σπεῖσον Μακεδόνες
                            3. ἀβλόη = σπένδε Μακεδόνες

                            Your translation correctly suggests these are both types of the same verb σπένδω (spendo) which means pour out, offer a drink for a sacrifice (sponde). The second one is more certain (it’s in imperative), the first one I’m not sure (past tense or something)

                            4. Ἰχναίην χώραν = τὴν Μακεδονίαν, ἔνθα τὸ μαντεῖον ὁ Ἀπόλλων κατέσχε, καὶ τιμᾶται

                            Ichnaian Land, Macedonia, where Apollo had his Oracle and was honored.
                            Ichnaios (= the one who follows the traces/ichne is an epithet of various Gods as Themis and Nemesis, which makes sense)

                            5. Λυγκαίη = πόλις Μακεδονίας (etymology of Λυγκαίη if possible)

                            Name of a Macedonian town. I guess etymology is obvious from Lynx as in Heraclea Lyncestis

                            6. ματτύης = ἡ μὲν φωνὴ Μακεδονική, ὄρνις. καὶ τὰ ἐκ τοῦ ζωμοῦ αὐτοῦ λάχανα περιφερόμενα

                            mattye (also called mattyle in Macedonia according to other sources) is a famous dish of birds, poured with its’ broth served with vegetables (lagana/lahana). These are the words… but I’m not sure how the dish is combined

                            7. Μυσίων Ὀλυμπίων = ἐπεὶ πλείους εἰσὶν Ὄλυμποι Μακεδονίας καὶ Θετταλίας•

                            I’m not sure where this phrase is from, but if you google it, you can find a more extended part and it says “Olympus of Mysia: most people know Olympus of Macedonia and Thessaly, but some have counted at least fourteen of them”. Olympus, a mountain in Mysia (in Asia Minor) is the second most famous Olympus.

                            8. Ὀλύμπια δώματ' ἔχοντες = ὅ ἐστιν ὄρος ἐν Μακεδονίᾳ

                            Not a word but an expression “Olympia domat’ ehontes” (i.e. the ones who have Olympian rooms) which is explained “the gods that inhabit Olympus, which is Heaven and a mountain in Macedonia”. You don't have the whole phrase, I found it in Hesychious.

                            9. τεθολώς = ἀνάπλεως. Ἀμερίας

                            Anapleos may have many meanings as full till top, infected etc, someone who’s fallen in a swamp and is sinking and you can hardly see his face stretching out would be anapleos

                            10. Χαλαστραίων συῶν = πόλις τῆς Μακεδονίας καὶ λίμνη ἔνθα τὸ Χαλαστραῖον νίτρον γεγένηται

                            Chalastra = a town and lake in Macedonia where the Chalastrian sodium is produced.
                            The exact form (Chalastraion syon) means “of Chalastrian hogs” but it doesn’t match with the translation.


                            ====
                            Last edited by Amphipolis; 10-17-2015, 10:38 AM.

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                            • TheNikoWhiteIch
                              Member
                              • Oct 2014
                              • 111

                              Thanks for those definitions! Regarding "Χαλαστραίων συῶν," Heinrich Tischner believes it means "sea, lake." I've looked through the website and also translated his remarks about these words, so everything seems to match up and checks out fine. Here's his note about the word "συῶν":


                              Lastly, what would you make of: <δρεπανηφόρα ἅρματα>· τοὺς Μακεδόνας φασὶ πρώτους χρήσασθαι? I got something along the lines of "the foremost Macedonian speech" from Google Translate and couldn't really find much information on it.
                              Last edited by TheNikoWhiteIch; 10-17-2015, 03:00 PM.

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                              • Amphipolis
                                Banned
                                • Aug 2014
                                • 1328

                                Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
                                Thanks for those definitions! Regarding "Χαλαστραίων συῶν," Heinrich Tischner believes it means "sea, lake." I've looked through the website and also translated his remarks about these words, so everything seems to match up and checks out fine. Here's his note about the word "συῶν":
                                http://www.heinrich-tischner.de/22-s...5;ΜΑ
                                Well, it's logical, because that's how Hesychius translates it, but I don't know this word (syon as sea/lake) and couldn't find this anywhere as an obscure ancient word.

                                Originally posted by TheNikoWhiteIch View Post
                                Lastly, what would you make of: <δρεπανηφόρα ἅρματα>· τοὺς Μακεδόνας φασὶ πρώτους χρήσασθαι? I got something along the lines of "the foremost Macedonian speech" from Google Translate and couldn't really find much information on it.
                                It says "Reaper Chariots: They say Macedonians were first to use them".

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