Macedonia and the European Union

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  • indigen
    Senior Member
    • May 2009
    • 1558

    Originally posted by Currency Trader View Post
    Indigen, I asked you a couple of questions before on your previous posting in regards to EU economics and integration, which you either missed or decided to ignore. Shall we take those first?
    Since you try to present yourself as some economic guru, why don't you do your own research? Article was by Sam Vaknin, former dpmne government economic advisor and a Guru to Gruevski himself, and you should contact him yourself (via emai) if you want further explanations!

    Indigen previously said/posted:

    Whoever wrote the above passage has missed one big point in all this. Before you can even become a member, the country will have to show some significant readiness and transformation which will be closely inspected that it can handle all or most areas as required. That means each candidate will have to demonstrate that it can absorb or handle 84,000 pages of acquis communautaire, environmental, sanitation or labour rules per EU. This process is lengthy and can take years, if not a full decade before the country is close to become a member. If all goes as it goes now, Macedonia will probably score well on these areas.

    As for the argument that Macedonia’s industries will crumble in the face of European competition, which industries is the author talking about?
    You can ask SV about the specifics yourself but, IMO, Macedonian manufacturing industry is mostly in food processing, clothing and textiles and some elements of light manufacturing, mining and steel production. Most of them are sheltered in one way or another and should protection be removed and EU standards applied, they could not compete with either more efficient EU competitors or cheaper imports allowed into the EU as part of its trade agreements with the likes of China, India and other low labour cost economies (states or economic blocks).
    Is the author suggesting that foreign competition will establish production inside Macedonia and thus knock-out domestic industries?
    I don't think so.

    Or is the author suggesting something else? Can you take his seat to answer these questions?
    See above.

    How did Bulgarian, Romanian, Slovenian, Greek industries handle European competition?
    None of them should be compared (or can compare) to RM in political historical terms or in economic development. Bulgaria, Romania and Greece, having been sovereign states for a long time with developed national perspective and policies, possessed national economic assets and infrastructure only independent national sovereign states can posses. They also benefit/ed from having a much larger population and in being strategic assets of the superpowers during the Cold War, where they had a lot of "free" (at the price of political submission) investments in infrastructure projects such as roads, highways, railways, airports and seaports, amongst other trade benefits and assistance. As for Slovenia, it also can not be compared to Macedonia as it was (and IS) in a different economic and political stage of development from the outset as well as benefiting tremendously by the fact of having an advantageous economic and political position during SFRJ days.


    The costs of accession are bound to be crippling: Macedonia’s sheltered and inefficient industries will crumble in the face of European competition; its judiciary and legislature will be buried under the 84,000 pages of the acquis communautaire; environmental, sanitation, and labour rules will render the private sector, such as it is in this benighted place, all but dysfunctional and insolvent; brain drain will likely reach epic proportions. Macedonia is not ready for EU accession. For the time being, it is better off as it is.
    The above passage does not prove that Macedonia will not benefit economically from EU.
    It clearly states that it will do badly from full membership at this time or in the near future and that IT WILL DO MUCH BETTER OUTSIDE THE EU ("For the time being, it is better off as it is"). If you want details, seek them yourself from SV or other economic experts.
    Last edited by indigen; 05-01-2011, 02:48 AM.

    Comment

    • indigen
      Senior Member
      • May 2009
      • 1558

      Originally posted by rujnovino View Post
      Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but China's most lucrative international economic relationships involve taking massive amounts of resources from resource-rich countries, and returning cheap manufactured goods in return
      I don't see Australia complaining about China taking massive amounts of resources, do you? I am also not sure that it is taking massive amounts of cheap resources from the USA, it biggest economic trading partner, if I am not mistaken.

      Secondly, IMO, the biggest reason for the economic boom in China is because Western manufactures have decided to go there due to cheap labour costs and other opportunities the Chinese provided for them in this age of Globalisation.


      which is achieved through its massive labor pool, and its utter lack of human rights, minority rights, worker's rights and environmental protections.
      Human rights is a debatable concept and I am sure the Chinese probably would prefer their overall current position than what they had under colonial or feudal rule as well as compared to that of most of the developing world, e.g. "democratic" India, Bangladesh and Pakistan!

      Secondly, when viewed objectively, I think they generally have a better track record on minority rights than most of the "developed" world countries do.

      Lastly, I think they are going to be leaders in clean energy and are now taking a keen interest in environmental issues. As for labour rights, I am not sure they are the worst but there are reports of sections of the labour force being terribly exploited (mostly for the benefit of western manufactures, as happens in Mexico and other developing countries) and I hear that the Chinese want to remedy this also but time will tell whether it is all just empty promises or progress.
      Last edited by indigen; 05-01-2011, 02:43 AM.

      Comment

      • Risto the Great
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 15658

        A very common wage for the average worker in China seems to be about $300 - $400 per month. There has been very strong pressure for wage increases and 30% increases have not been uncommon lately.

        I can't stress how generally nice the people are and how industrious they seem to be.
        Risto the Great
        MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
        "Holding my breath for the revolution."

        Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

        Comment

        • indigen
          Senior Member
          • May 2009
          • 1558

          Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
          A very common wage for the average worker in China seems to be about $300 - $400 per month. There has been very strong pressure for wage increases and 30% increases have not been uncommon lately.

          I can't stress how generally nice the people are and how industrious they seem to be.
          The Chinese people I have met and known in Australia are generally very nice and warm and also industrious but I don't want to generalise too much as I am sure there also a few (though a small minority), as in all societies, who don't fit that description (either in Australia or back in China).

          Secondly, I think China would have a two-tiered economy and thus should have varied wage levels. The rural and less developed (outside the coastal economic development zones) parts of China still have hundreds of millions of possible recruits for labour-intensive industries to relocate to if necessary without leaving China and at the same time still keeping all the other benefits the country offers to industrial manufacturers of the world.

          Lastly, the following news report on Macedonian minimum wages campaign for Macedonian workers might shed some light on the state of the clothing industry in RM:



          Минимална плата од 160 евра ќе го доведе текстилот до колапс

          Минимална плата од 160 евра ќе го доведе текстилот до колапс. Текстилниот бизнис не се сложува со висината на законски најниска плата за работниците. Го поздравуваат барањето на Синдикатот, но велат дека изедначен минималец за сите сектори ќе ги зголеми трошоците.
          [...]

          Канал 5 телевизија како една од водечките телевизиски куќи во Македонија, од 1998 година на малите екрани до гледање онлајн денес, известува за најновите вести од Македонија, регионот и светот.


          This would be one sector to go under first should there be EU minimum wages applied to it, IMO!
          Last edited by indigen; 05-01-2011, 12:50 AM.

          Comment

          • Belomorec
            Junior Member
            • Apr 2011
            • 17

            Yeah see the thing is that just for the very fact that anyone needs to discuss a country joining the EU makes me think the whole thing is a sham and a waste of time.

            Greece is in the EU: look at their economic situation.

            Bulgaria is too. Look at their inflation.

            Ditto for Romania. Portugal. Ireland.


            The false economy that a few billionaires created in order to rule the world is not something Macedonia should be part of. Simple as that.

            Comment

            • DirtyCodingHabitz
              Member
              • Sep 2010
              • 835

              The false economy that a few billionaires created in order to rule the world is not something Macedonia should be part of. Simple as that.
              Agree with you on this 100%. But it's impossible to escape it when you have majority of the population wanting a "stronger economy". People need to start waking up and realize that economy is real because people make you think it's real, it's called brainwashing from birth till you die.

              I guess the majority don't understand that economy is not real, or, they just don't want to accept it because they are greedy and they love making money.

              Comment

              • Currency Trader
                Member
                • Sep 2009
                • 172

                Indigen said:
                Since you try to present yourself as some economic guru, why don't you do your own research? Article was by Sam Vaknin, former dpmne government economic advisor and a Guru to Gruevski himself, and you should contact him yourself (via emai) if you want further explanations!

                I don’t recall presenting myself as some economic guru as you claim. Besides, since you posted a text paragraph, you should expect questions on the stuff you posted. That’s not unfair is it? After all, it wasn’t like you revealed the author of this text until I repeated the unanswered questions for you.

                Sam Vaknin - The name sounds familiar – I may be wrong, but is this the individual that so many Macedonians dislike because they consider him to be anti-Macedonian or a psychopath?


                **************

                Indigen said:

                You can ask SV about the specifics yourself but, IMO, Macedonian manufacturing industry is mostly in food processing, clothing and textiles and some elements of light manufacturing, mining and steel production. Most of them are sheltered in one way or another and should protection be removed and EU standards applied, they could not compete with either more efficient EU competitors or cheaper imports allowed into the EU as part of its trade agreements with the likes of China, India and other low labour cost economies (states or economic blocks).

                Can you shed some more specifics on how the Macedonian manufacturing industry is “sheltered in one way or another”?

                Secondly and more specifically, what EU standards would remove the protection for Macedonian manufacturing?

                And lastly, as previously stated, before Macedonia can become a member of EU, the country will have to show some significant readiness and transformation which will be closely inspected that it can handle all or most areas as required. This process is lengthy and can take years, if not a full decade before the country is close to become a member.



                *****************

                Indigen said:

                None of them should be compared (or can compare) to RM in political historical terms or in economic development. Bulgaria, Romania and Greece, having been sovereign states for a long time with developed national perspective and policies, possessed national economic assets and infrastructure only independent national sovereign states can posses. They also benefit/ed from having a much larger population and in being strategic assets of the superpowers during the Cold War, where they had a lot of "free" (at the price of political submission) investments in infrastructure projects such as roads, highways, railways, airports and seaports, amongst other trade benefits and assistance. As for Slovenia, it also can not be compared to Macedonia as it was (and IS) in a different economic and political stage of development from the outset as well as benefiting tremendously by the fact of having an advantageous economic and political position during SFRJ days.


                If you’re using the argument for having been sovereign states for a long time (Bulgaria, Romania, Slovenia, Greece), then use the Baltic states for comparison on how they handled European competition?


                ************

                Indigen said

                It clearly states that it will do badly from full membership at this time or in the near future and that IT WILL DO MUCH BETTER OUTSIDE THE EU
                What it states is Sam Vaknins opinion on Macedonia, but without considering the fact that Macedonia will have to DEMONSTRATE full readiness and transformation that it can handle all or most areas as required per EU. So, if Macedonia is ready to really become a full-fledged member, it should be able to handle most of the points Mr Vaknin is making.



                -
                Last edited by Currency Trader; 05-03-2011, 01:03 PM.

                Comment

                • Currency Trader
                  Member
                  • Sep 2009
                  • 172

                  Indigen said:

                  Not exactly answering your specific question but Spain is one major country that is NOT doing all that well in the "great" EU.
                  Yes, and do you know the reason for it, other than cut'n paste from news stories on Spain's unemployment?

                  To be objective,there are more countries in EU than just Spain. But I assume you know that?




                  -

                  Comment

                  • Currency Trader
                    Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 172

                    Originally posted by DirtyCodingHabitz View Post
                    Parties like UKIP in other countries. I don't know their names or the politicians.

                    Why don't they put the EU membership to a vote and see how many people want to stay in the EU? They know that people want out of the EU.

                    The UKIP is not exactly a big party of UK. Although, countries do have populations that are not too excited with EU in light of recent negligence of state finances. As for the membership vote by populations, there have been countries that made referendums. EU got a fairly big vote from eastern European countries.


                    .

                    Comment

                    • Currency Trader
                      Member
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 172

                      Originally posted by Belomorec View Post
                      Yeah see the thing is that just for the very fact that anyone needs to discuss a country joining the EU makes me think the whole thing is a sham and a waste of time.

                      Greece is in the EU: look at their economic situation.

                      Bulgaria is too. Look at their inflation.

                      Ditto for Romania. Portugal. Ireland.

                      Sweden is in the EU: look at their economic situation.

                      Danmark too: Look at their inflation

                      Ditto for Germany, Austria, Netherlands.


                      How about some objectivity and the fact that there are 27 EU members? You just counted 5.


                      .

                      Comment

                      • Onur
                        Senior Member
                        • Apr 2010
                        • 2389

                        Originally posted by Currency Trader View Post
                        The UKIP is not exactly a big party of UK. Although, countries do have populations that are not too excited with EU in light of recent negligence of state finances.
                        There are more powerful anti-EU parties in other countries too. Like the new major opposition party in Finland. The major opposition party in Hungary is also talking about leaving EU. Anti-EU, far right party of Le Pen is leading the polls in France. Austrian far right party is also leading the votes there and they are usually anti-EU again. Also no one can deny that anti-EU parties are rising literally in every EU countries. It`s because Europeans are sick of EU concept anymore.



                        As for the membership vote by populations, there have been countries that made referendums. EU got a fairly big vote from eastern European countries
                        Ohh yeah, just like the referendums in Ireland who voted for "NO" two times and then forced to organize 3rd referendum back to back just to get 51% "YES" for EU and then they took it in 3rd one. Thats what i call democracy

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          CT macedonia will not benefit from the eu overall when one considers the handouts the exploitation of a country's resources,the employment factor,the huge deficit that will follow
                          will make it all prohibitive.On the surface it sounds like it's utopia nice & simple but short term gain long term loss.That's why countries rethink why they joined in the first place.The politicians & economists think that there is pie in the sky & keep painting a rosy picture it's not as rosy as it looks.Macedonia will be worse offmprice wise,value wise,It doesnot make sense to join as it's economy will not be sheltered from the eu economic storm.Once your'e in your in & the damage will follow.Macedonia if you value your sovereignity & freedom do not join stupid organizations like the EU making stupid requests to join by compromising one's name or identity.
                          Macedonia can find enough trading partners on it's own there is more prosperity & economic gain being on their own than there is by joinng the eu.It's all not working out as planned as the eu is going to eventually implode from within.THe ones that join will carry the can of economic loss in terms of deficit at their peril.Ct one need to think outside the square for a change.In the real world not everything is equal least of all theso called economic benefits of joining the eu.
                          Last edited by George S.; 05-03-2011, 04:15 PM. Reason: edit
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • Risto the Great
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 15658

                            Originally posted by Currency Trader View Post
                            Sweden is in the EU: look at their economic situation.

                            Danmark too: Look at their inflation

                            Ditto for Germany, Austria, Netherlands.


                            How about some objectivity and the fact that there are 27 EU members? You just counted 5.


                            .
                            In fact, what you are stating is a compelling argument that nothing changes once you get into the EU.
                            Risto the Great
                            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                            Comment

                            • DirtyCodingHabitz
                              Member
                              • Sep 2010
                              • 835

                              Oh great the troll is back. So why don't they want to give all European Union countries a referendum if they still want to be in the EU?

                              Comment

                              • Pelister
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 2742

                                What another clever piece of propoganda CurrencyTrader.

                                The E.U is irrelevant.

                                1. Because it demands we change our name
                                2. It offers nothing (financially) we cannot easily achieve through free trade agreements, and bilateral agreements for increased direct foriegn investment (as the last few years have shown)
                                3. Because its corrupt.
                                4. Because E.U money is funding the propaganda war against the Macedonians
                                5. Because it refuses to support Macedonian human rights, in Bulgaria. In fact it through the case out.

                                Take all of this important context out of your mischievous heading "Can Macedonia benefit from it?" and all Macedonians are left with is more of your bullshit UMD propaganda for a continuation of the 'negotiations', even though the Macedonian people are against it. Its 'high end' propagandists like yourself that have been skrewing the Macedonians over, for a century now. You may as well be working for the Greeks.
                                Last edited by Pelister; 05-03-2011, 11:16 PM.

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