Characteristics of East, West and South Slavic

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #16
    Originally posted by Slovak
    Yes, but Macedonian lacks cases and hence it needs to use longer forms to express something it would take only one word in other Slavic languages to describe precisely. The very existence of articles is based on the lack of cases.
    That makes sense Slovak. The Macedonian dialects have not lost all of their cases have they? I though this was mainly restricted to the standardised literary language.

    Can you show us an example of all the various cases in Serbian?

    Are they the same, and as numerous, as in the Slovak language?
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      #17



      SINGULAR
      Nominative: žena
      Accusative: ženu
      Genitive: žene
      Dative/Locative: ženi
      Instrumental: ženom
      Vocative: ženo

      PLURAL
      Nominative: žene
      Accusative: žene
      Genitive: žena
      Dative/Locative: ženama
      Instrumental: ženama
      Vocative: žene


      More common among the older generations, cases in Macedonian can be found when one would say Odime vo Prilepa Grada as opposed to Odime vo Gradot Prilep, I believe that would be 'locative'. Another case which Macedonian would also have is 'vocative', where in Serbian it would be "pevaj, devojchice", whereas in Macedonian it is "Pej, devojchence".

      There is also the Odime kaj Branka as opposed to Odime kaj Branko. Come to think of it, whether or not Kje is added I don't think that would change the meaning of that sentence, because Kje Odime kaj Branko and Odime kaj Branko basically means the same thing.

      How about when Macedonians use words which are directed at a person being spoken to, such as Kralu and Krale instead of Kral, Mazhu instead of Mazh, Zheno instead of Zhena, Prijatele instead of Prijatel, Kralice or Kralico instead of Kralica, are these classified as cases, and if so, what kind? Accusative, Vocative?

      Appreciate your help on this one.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Sarafot
        Member
        • Dec 2008
        • 616

        #18
        Tray Slovenian

        Kdo ali kaj-Žena
        Koga ali česa-Žene
        Komu ali čemu-Ženi
        Koga ali kaj -Ženo
        pri kom ali pri čem-pri Ženi
        s kom ali s čim-z Ženo

        Slovenian is hardest of all slavic,they also have duality-dvojina

        Jaz -ti -on
        Midva -vidva -onadva
        Mi-vi.oni

        So two women will be like this

        Ženi
        Žen
        Ženi
        Ženi
        Ženah
        Ženama
        Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
        - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

        Comment

        • Delodephius
          Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 736

          #19
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          How about when Macedonians use words which are directed at a person being spoken to, such as Kralu and Krale instead of Kral, Mazhu instead of Mazh, Zheno instead of Zhena, Prijatele instead of Prijatel, Kralice or Kralico instead of Kralica, are these classified as cases, and if so, what kind? Accusative, Vocative?

          Appreciate your help on this one.
          That would be Vocative, the addressing case.

          Each case has a question attached to, though in English the question for each case might vary, in Slavic language they are pretty much of the same form:
          Nominative (who?, what?)
          Genitive (of/from who?, of/from what?)
          Dative (to who?, to what?)
          Accusative (of who?, what?)
          Vocative (who!, what!)
          Instrumental (with who?, with what?)
          Locative (at/about who?, at/about what?)

          In Russian, Locative is called the Prepositional case because it never stands alone without a preposition, which is true for all Slavic languages since prepositions determine the exact position of where an object is located. In some, like Serbian, the suffix for Locative is the same as for Dative, but the accent is different.

          Let's try something different. Declension for Upper Sorbian:

          nan - father

          Sg.
          N nan (zero morpheme)
          G nana
          D nanej
          A nana*
          V nano!
          L nanje
          I nanom

          *In all Slavic languages the Accusative case singular masculine is equal to Nominative if it's inanimate or Genitive if it is animate.

          Du.
          N,V nanaj
          G,A nanow
          D,L,I nanomaj

          Pl.
          N nanojo
          G nanow
          D nanam
          A nanow
          V nanojo!
          L nanach
          I nanami
          अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
          उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
          This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
          But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #20
            Thanks for that information Slovak, rarely can your knowledge on the Slavonic tongues and dialects be questioned!

            So basing on what Sarafot and yourself have just posted with regard to the Slovene and Upper Sorbian languages, is it a fair to assume that only these two members of the Slavonic language group have the 'dual' declension? I knew that Slovenian had this feature present, are there any more apart from Upper Sorbian, some sub-dialects or regional?
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • Delodephius
              Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 736

              #21
              Except in dialects of Slovenian and Upper Sorbian there is only in Lower Sorbian. Fragments of the Dual tense forms however exist in all Slavic languages for example in words that describe things that come in pairs like eyes, hands, legs, etc. and the case declension of numeral two. Here is na example:


              There also exist in some Slavic languages in some words a tense called Paucal which applies to "small" number of things that are two, three and four and normally has a different Nominative case than in higher quantity of things. For example (in Serbian) - sat (clock):
              jedan sat
              dva, tri, četiri sata
              pet, šest, sedam, etc. sati
              Last edited by Delodephius; 12-25-2008, 05:10 PM.
              अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
              उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
              This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
              But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

              Comment

              • Soldier of Macedon
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 13670

                #22
                Slovak, are you aware of any words specifically used in South Slavic but not in the East and West? I can think of two from the top of my head, Kuche/Kuchuk for 'Dog' and Magare/Magarac for 'Donkey'.
                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  #23
                  I can't think of any without them being taken from Turkish or via Turkish from other languages. I even think "kuče" might be a Persian word.

                  Oak in Serbian is "hrast" for example. Let me check the Serbian dictionary:
                  brašno - flour
                  dlaka - hair
                  gljiva - mushroom
                  grana - branch
                  guzica - butt, ass
                  guša - goitre, gullet, throat
                  ... and I'm sure there are more.
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Slovak
                    brašno - flour
                    dlaka - hair
                    gljiva - mushroom
                    grana - branch
                    guzica - butt, ass
                    guša - goitre, gullet, throat
                    In Macedonian it is pretty much the same except we would say pechurka - mushroom and kosa - hair. So these words are not used outside of the Balkans where it concerns the Slavic languages?

                    Check some more out if you can, I began thinking about it and wondered if we can highlight any that may be of Thraco-Illyrian origin, but as I have found up until now, most if not all Thraco-Illyrian words that can be linked to a Slavic language usually features in all of the Slavic languages. This supports the fact that the Thraco-Illyrian languages were at the very least already related to the Slavic languages prior to the invasions of the 6th century.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • Delodephius
                      Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 736

                      #25
                      The word "dlaka" doesn't stand solely for the hair on your head, but it means a single thread of hair, anywhere. It can also mean "fur" in some context, although "fur" is called "krzno", which is also apparently another South Slavic word. Hair on the head is also called "kosa" in Serbian. "Kosa" is also used in Ukrainian and Russian.
                      "Pečurka" is also used in Serbian, but only for those that have a "hat".
                      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        #26
                        It would be good to compile a list of words unique to the South Slavic languages, preference being to have the words used by at least one of the nations on each side of the Balkans (Illyria + Macedonia/Thrace).

                        Kuche/Kuchuk may indeed be a Persian word, some have proposed that it derives from Bulgar origins, but how would that explain somebody on the other side of the Balkan Peninsula in Dalmatia using the same word? Could it have derived from the Croat and/or Serb tribes, who are also proposed by some to have had Iranian origins prior to their admixture with the Slavs in the western Balkans and north of the western side of the Danube?

                        Grana/Granka brings forth an interesting case, it is cited by Hesychius of Alexandria in the 5th century in the form of 'Garkan' as a native word of Macedonia meaning 'branch', that has the Greek word of 'Ravdi' as its closest equivalent. There can be no mistaking that there is a striking similarity to the same word used today in the South Slavic languages, is the same word used in Slovak or Russian?

                        Same thing with Gusha, is it used outside of the Balkans, if not, we will add it on the list below.

                        Gljiva probably has variant words equivalent in other Slavic languages, such as Gobji in Slovenian, Grib in Russian, Grzyb in Polish, and even in the Baltic cousins such as Grybai in Lithuanian. Do you think they are from the same origin? Pechurka on the other hand seems to be native only to South Slavic.

                        With regard to the word Brashno for 'flour', I did a quick check on Google Translate and it is not present in West Slavic or Russian, but it is in Ukrainian as Boroshna. What do you make of that?



                        So far there are the following:

                        Magare/Magarac
                        G'z/Gas/Gus
                        Pechurka
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • El Bre
                          Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 713

                          #27
                          The word "dlaka" doesn't stand solely for the hair on your head, but it means a single thread of hair
                          Sounds similar to vlackno

                          Comment

                          • Sarafot
                            Member
                            • Dec 2008
                            • 616

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Slovak/Anomaly/Tomas View Post
                            Oak in Serbian is "hrast" for example. Let me check the Serbian dictionary:
                            brašno - flour
                            dlaka - hair
                            gljiva - mushroom
                            grana - branch
                            guzica - butt, ass
                            guša - goitre, gullet, throat
                            ... and I'm sure there are more.
                            IN Macedonian

                            Oak-Dab
                            brašno - flour
                            vlakno - hair
                            gaba - mushroom
                            granka - branch
                            gaz - butt, ass
                            guša/grkljan - goitre, gullet, throat

                            IN Slovenian

                            Oak-Hrast
                            moka - flour
                            dlaka - hair
                            goba - mushroom
                            veja- branch
                            rit - butt, ass
                            goltanec - goitre, gullet, throat

                            Original Macedonian is Gaba-pečurka is more Serbo-Croatian,and is used in some Macedonian dialects.
                            Last edited by Sarafot; 01-02-2009, 02:50 PM.
                            Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
                            - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

                            Comment

                            • Soldier of Macedon
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 13670

                              #29
                              To tell you the truth, I have never even heard of the word 'goba', 'grib', etc for a mushroom until this thread. I would say that 'pechurka' is used way more by Macedonians, at least the one's I have known. It is definetly not from Serbian influence, the Bulgarians use it also.
                              In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                              Comment

                              • Jankovska
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1774

                                #30
                                Gaba (pechurka) is very much used in Macedonia, south Macedonia mostly

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