Ion Dragoumis recognizes the Macedonian language in 1907!

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  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #16
    Thanks mate
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • Daskalot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 4345

      #17
      Here is a translation of the above text into English:
      -You cannot own every town/city that is inhabited by Greeks. If so Massalia would be yours, as well as Edessa
      -The same observation more or less I make of you.
      You want to make the area of Monastiri yours, because there are towns there where Macedonian* is spoken, which you call Bulgarian.
      - Many towns! All the towns in the area speak Bulgarian!

      Do they wish to be Greeks or not?
      And since they do want(to be Greek), Im not sure if language is enough proof of a peoples ethnicity.
      First off, the language in question is not spoken by all, but only some Macedonian villagers. Those who speak it, do so only in their houses not in public(agora), where they speak Greek. And finally, this language is not Bulgarian, but a mix of slavic and Greek. It is not Bulgarian, Bulgarian does not exist even in Bulgaria. The cities of Macedonia are clearly Greek, the people of the area are Greek, the history of the area is Greek, and the actual land(earth/dirt) is Greek.

      - I can not understand, and I never will, this idea that you have that the Macedonians lost their language and picked up Bulgarian.
      -I can not see how the Bulgarians who are Ouvo(?)-Tartars lost their language and took...

      *the exact translation from Greek is Macedonian language
      I have been researching some more, what caught my eye was the town/city of "Massalia" after some research I found out that is is in fact Marseille.
      Marseille (English alt. Marseilles IPA: /mɑrˈseɪ/; French: '[maʁsɛj]'; locally [mɑχˈsɛjɐ]; Classical Provençal: Marselha, [maʀˈsejɔ, maʀˈsijɔ]; Mistralian Provençal: Marsiho, [maʀˈsijɔ]), formerly known as Massalia (from Greek: Μασσαλία), is the second-largest city of France.
      The above information is taken from Wikipedia.

      Thus it is highly unlikely that the city which is translated as "Edessa" is the city of Edessa/Voden, it is more likely that the city of Odessa in Ukraine is referred to here.
      Also taking into consideration that it is written as "Οδεσσα" in the above written text.

      Also the Ouno-Tartars should be Hunno-Tartars.

      Thus it should be:
      -You cannot own every city that is inhabited by Greeks. If so Marseille would be yours, as well as Odessa
      -The same observation more or less I make of you.
      You want to make the area of Monastiri yours, because there are towns there where Macedonian* is spoken, which you call Bulgarian.
      - Many towns! All the towns in the area speak Bulgarian!

      Do they wish to be Greeks or not?
      And since they do want(to be Greek), Im not sure if language is enough proof of a peoples ethnicity.
      First off, the language in question is not spoken by all, but only some Macedonian villagers. Those who speak it, do so only in their houses not in public(agora), where they speak Greek. And finally, this language is not Bulgarian, but a mix of slavic and Greek. It is not Bulgarian, Bulgarian does not exist even in Bulgaria. The cities of Macedonia are clearly Greek, the people of the area are Greek, the history of the area is Greek, and the actual land(earth/dirt) is Greek.

      - I can not understand, and I never will, this idea that you have that the Macedonians lost their language and picked up Bulgarian.
      -I can not see how the Bulgarians who are Hunno-Tartars lost their language and took...

      *the exact translation from Greek is Macedonian language
      Macedonian Truth Organisation

      Comment

      • Pelister
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 2742

        #18
        -You cannot own every city that is inhabited by Greeks. If so Marseille would be yours, as well as Odessa
        -The same observation more or less I make of you.
        You want to make the area of Monastiri yours, because there are towns there where Macedonian* is spoken, which you call Bulgarian.
        - Many towns! All the towns in the area speak Bulgarian!

        Do they wish to be Greeks or not?
        And since they do want(to be Greek), Im not sure if language is enough proof of a peoples ethnicity.
        First off, the language in question is not spoken by all, but only some Macedonian villagers. Those who speak it, do so only in their houses not in public(agora), where they speak Greek. And finally, this language is not Bulgarian, but a mix of slavic and Greek. It is not Bulgarian, Bulgarian does not exist even in Bulgaria. The cities of Macedonia are clearly Greek, the people of the area are Greek, the history of the area is Greek, and the actual land(earth/dirt) is Greek.

        - I can not understand, and I never will, this idea that you have that the Macedonians lost their language and picked up Bulgarian.
        -I can not see how the Bulgarians who are Hunno-Tartars lost their language and took...
        What a strange thing to say. I wonder what he means by this, or what he is trying to say about the Macedonian langauge?

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #19
          An excellent effort Daskalot.
          You have completely destroyed any suggestion of "Edessa".
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Risto the Great
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 15658

            #20
            An excellent effort Daskalot.
            You have completely destroyed any suggestion of "Edessa".
            Risto the Great
            MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
            "Holding my breath for the revolution."

            Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

            Comment

            • Sarafot
              Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 616

              #21
              Daskale is that PDF in Greek? If it is not, i would like to read it to?
              Ние македонците не сме ни срби, ни бугари, туку просто Македонци. Ние ги симпатизираме и едните и другите, кој ќе не ослободи, нему ќе му речеме благодарам, но србите и бугарите нека не забораваат дека Македонија е само за Македонците.
              - Борис Сарафов, 2 септември 1902

              Comment

              • Daskalot
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 4345

                #22
                Originally posted by Sarafot View Post
                Daskale is that PDF in Greek? If it is not, i would like to read it to?
                It is in Greek unfortunately.
                Macedonian Truth Organisation

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #23
                  Here is page 99 of the same book, I hope you enjoy the read.



                  Translation into English, some words are missing a translation and are indicated with [not-translated-word]
                  what Bulgarians who are not Bulgarian, but Slavs! I would like to ask you something. Before the several Slavs came to Macedonia, was the area uninhabited? Was it a deserted area that the Slavs discovered and then settled?
                  -No, I do not say that.
                  -At least, that is not what history tells us. If Macedonia was inhabited by populations, whoever they were, Greek, Chinese or other, these populations, when the Slavs came, either were lost, or their language mixed with the language of the Slavs because they had to communicate with these wild men who could not learn Greek. However, we know that these populations were not lost, there remains another explanation. The area is not Bulgarian, and neither is the language spoken Bulgarian. The Bulgarian exist only near the Bulgarian border, or just south of Sofia.
                  -I do not accept this theory. I would have to [praktikotera] things more realistically to accept it.
                  -I admit that what I have said are only theories and I leave them and come back to the [praktikotera] which you believe. You cannot deny that we have a big influence with the population that speaks Macedonian, the same way we have a big influence with those who speak Vlach(Aromanian)*. I did not count the drops of Slavic blood which runs through the veins of the Macedonian people, or mine, but I see one thing, one fact, that we have [trismegisti] influence over these populations.
                  -Over the villagers that speak Macedonian you have no influence. They have a Bulgarian consciousness.

                  *added by the translator, for those who do not know of the Vlach or Aromanian language. It is a Romance language similar to the Romanian language.
                  This is a very interesting text, both the Greek(Ion Dragoumis) Consul and the Bulgarian officer recognizes a Macedonian language, and this in 1907! Isn't History to kind sometimes..... :rmacedonia
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

                  Comment

                  • Pelister
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2742

                    #24
                    This is a very valuable contemporary source. Good work.

                    Comment

                    • Daskalot
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 4345

                      #25
                      Here are both pages and their translation for an easier overview.

                      Page 98.


                      Page 99.


                      Translation of page 98 into English:
                      -You cannot own every city that is inhabited by Greeks. If so Marseille would be yours, as well as Odessa
                      -The same observation more or less I make of you.
                      You want to make the area of Monastiri yours, because there are towns where the Macedonian language is spoken, which you call Bulgarian.
                      - Many towns! All the towns in the area speak Bulgarian!

                      -We and many remained! Do they wish to be Greeks or not;
                      And since they do want to be, I am not sure if language is enough proof of a peoples ethnicity.
                      First off, the language in question is not spoken by all, but only some Macedonian villagers. Those who speak it, do so only in their home not in public, where they speak Greek. And finally, this language is not Bulgarian, but a mix of Slavic and Greek. It is not Bulgarian, Bulgarian does not exist even in Bulgaria. The cities of Macedonia are clearly Greek, the people of the area are Greek, the history of the area is Greek, and the actual soil is Greek.

                      - I cannot understand, and I never will, this idea that you have that the Macedonians lost their language and picked up Bulgarian.
                      -I cannot see how the Bulgarians who are Hunno-Tartars lost their language and took
                      Translation of page 99 into English, some words are missing a translation and are indicated with [not-translated-word]
                      the Bulgarian which is not Bulgarian, but Slavic! I would like to ask you something. Before the several Slavs came to Macedonia, was the area uninhabited? Was it a deserted area that the Slavs discovered and then settled?
                      -No, I do not say that.
                      -At least, that is not what history tells us. If Macedonia was inhabited by populations, whoever they were, Greek, Chinese or other, these populations, when the Slavs came, either were lost, or their language mixed with the language of the Slavs because they had to communicate with these wild men who could not learn Greek. However, we know that these populations were not lost, there remains another explanation. The area is not Bulgarian, and neither is the language spoken Bulgarian. The Bulgarian exist only near the Bulgarian border, or just south of Sofia.
                      -I do not accept this theory. I would have to [praktikotera] things more realistically to accept it.
                      -I admit that what I have said are only theories and I leave them and come back to the [praktikotera] which you believe. You cannot deny that we have a big influence with the population that speaks Macedonian, the same way we have a big influence with those who speak Vlach(Aromanian)*. I did not count the drops of Slavic blood which runs through the veins of the Macedonian people, or mine, but I see one thing, one fact, that we have [trismegisti] influence over these populations.
                      -Over the villagers that speak Macedonian you have no influence. They have a Bulgarian consciousness.

                      *added by the translator, for those who do not know of the Vlach or Aromanian language. It is a Romance language similar to the Romanian language.
                      Source: Ίων Δραγούμης, «Μαρτύρων και ηρώων αίμα», εκδ. Μαλλιάρης-Παιδεία (φωτογραφική ανατύπωση της α' εκδ. 1907), page 98-99.
                      Macedonian Truth Organisation

                      Comment

                      • Daskalot
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 4345

                        #26
                        This thread needs a bump, 1.5 years goes very fast.
                        Macedonian Truth Organisation

                        Comment

                        • Pelister
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 2742

                          #27
                          Great thread Daskalot. A few more solid contemporary sources like this one, and we can begin to make a strong case that contemporary Greeks who spent time in Macedonia distinguished the Macedonians as different from themselves, and different from the Bulgarians.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            #28
                            .....the actual soil is Greek.
                            I guess this sort of stupidity was rampant even back in 1907. I would love to know what sort of soil tests were carried out by Dragoumis for him to reach the conclusion that the 'actual soil is Greek'.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Imagination
                              Junior Member
                              • Feb 2011
                              • 69

                              #29
                              He thinks everything is Greek, this post doesn't make sence. He recognizes a language which is a mixture of other languages, there's nothing to be happy at. And has anyone ever heard of such a scientist ? And actually the Greeks come from Ethiopia or India, why are they always talked of being "so civilized" ?
                              Last edited by Imagination; 02-28-2011, 06:40 AM.

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                #30
                                The point of this thread, which has obviously gone way over your head, is the fact that the Macedonian language was recognised and acknowledged by people like Dragoumis. His 'finer detail' about what he thinks about the language is of little concern for us. The facts are simple, he saw people that identified their language as Macedonian, and he called it Macedonian himself.

                                This was in 1907. Pavlos Melas also recognised the same in 1904. It is now 2011, and some morons pretend that the Macedonians don't exist.

                                Your wholesale comment about Greeks emanating from Ethiopia and India is more a reflection of your own ignorance rather than reality. To be honest, I am not even sure where you plucked India from, and any Ethiopian 'component' would have been long outweighed by the Indo-European component of the Greek people during the last 3,000 years.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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