Politics and elections in France

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  • Gocka
    Senior Member
    • Dec 2012
    • 2306

    #91
    French Elections / EU Future

    So are we ready for a shock Le Pen win in France followed by a Frexit?

    The stage is set perfectly. The recent terrorist attack in Paris is likely to have the same effect as wiki leaks did in the US elections. It was perfectly timed to give Le Pen that slight advantage. The same line of delusion and denial is going on in French liberal circles as it did in the USA, she can't possibly win they say.

    The real question is, what happens if she wins. Will that mean France looks to exit the EU? If it does that is the end of the EU.

    I think she will win, I don't think France will exit the EU because of it though.

    Thoughts predictions?

    Comment

    • DraganOfStip
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2011
      • 1253

      #92
      Originally posted by Gocka View Post
      So are we ready for a shock Le Pen win in France followed by a Frexit?

      The stage is set perfectly. The recent terrorist attack in Paris is likely to have the same effect as wiki leaks did in the US elections. It was perfectly timed to give Le Pen that slight advantage. The same line of delusion and denial is going on in French liberal circles as it did in the USA, she can't possibly win they say.

      The real question is, what happens if she wins. Will that mean France looks to exit the EU? If it does that is the end of the EU.

      I think she will win, I don't think France will exit the EU because of it though.

      Thoughts predictions?
      If she wins, I think it will happen in the first leg only.
      She might get the most votes in the first leg but once she goes to the second leg along with the other candidate, the French will join forces and vote for the other candidate just to oust her.
      We've seen this happen before in the French local elections last year as well as in the Austrian presidential elections.
      For everyone's sake, I hope that happens.
      ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
      ― George Orwell

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #93
        Originally posted by Gocka
        Will that mean France looks to exit the EU? If it does that is the end of the EU.
        One way or another, God willing.
        Originally posted by DraganOfStip
        She might get the most votes in the first leg but once she goes to the second leg along with the other candidate, the French will join forces and vote for the other candidate just to oust her.
        Yes, that is the most likely scenario.
        We've seen this happen before in the French local elections last year as well as in the Austrian presidential elections. For everyone's sake, I hope that happens.
        Why do you hope that happens?
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • DraganOfStip
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2011
          • 1253

          #94
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          Why do you hope that happens?
          See thread "Far-right option wins French local elections" for reference.
          ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
          ― George Orwell

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #95
            Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
            See thread "Far-right option wins French local elections" for reference.
            I'm not entirely familiar with her past, but has Marine Le Pen made any anti-Semitic or Nazi statements like her father, whom she expelled from the party for that reason?
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • DraganOfStip
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2011
              • 1253

              #96
              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
              I'm not entirely familiar with her past, but has Marine Le Pen made any anti-Semitic or Nazi statements like her father, whom she expelled from the party for that reason?
              Ousting her father and the subsequent "facelift" of the party in recent times was a necessity to the National Front because of it's fascist, revisionist, antisemitic and antiislamic past that was harming their reputation. It had to be done under increased public pressure and the negative effect these things had in the electoral body. Beneath the makeup, they're the same fascists as they always were. This is something that our own DPMNE had to do when Grujo took over, it had to get rid of Ljubco Vojvoda and his closest collaborators in order to present itself to the Macedonian public that it had cleaned itself from the inner filth. Let's hope the French don't do the same mistake as us and fall for it.
              As far as antisemitic and nazi statements is concerned, she denied France's role in the Vel d'Hiv, the rounding up of over 13.000 French Jews and sending them to the Nazi death camps.
              She also stated that besides banning the muslims from wearing a hijab and niqab, the jews should also be banned from wearing the kippah, Le Pen has publicly asked the Jews to make that "small sacrifice".
              But one only needs to read their party program which, as I had stated also in the other thread, includes among other things:
              -Giving police greater power to tap phones and Internet communications.
              -Family benefits, including child support, to be only available to French families (or where at least one parent is French).
              -A ban on automatic immigration rights to join a spouse or family member residing legally in France.
              -A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.
              -Priority to be given to ethnic French over other French citizens for jobs and for social housing.
              And while some of these points can be seen and pass as protection of national identity, they are discriminatory to say the least.
              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
              ― George Orwell

              Comment

              • Gocka
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2012
                • 2306

                #97
                Who is ethnically French? There are black folks in France who have been there for ever, what are they? Its kind of funny when these big conglomerate countries try to define their ethnicity, its basically going to come down to white people vs everyone else, other wise who says who is ethnically french? How many people of British or German decent live in France for generations, would they be considered not French?

                Comment

                • Phoenix
                  Senior Member
                  • Dec 2008
                  • 4671

                  #98
                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Gocka

                  Will that mean France looks to exit the EU? If it does that is the end of the EU.

                  Quote:
                  Originally Posted by Soldier of Macedon

                  One way or another, God willing.

                  +1

                  Would love to see the EU disbanded and discarded.

                  In it's present form I regard the EU as Macedonia's greatest existential threat.
                  When you consider the veto power afforded to EU members and with each of our lunatic neighbours gaining membership, it slowly erodes our ability to maintain our identity.

                  When you combine the dysfunctional and biased EU membership process with the shameless willingness of many Macedonian politicians (and private citizens) to abandon everything in exchange for some shiny beads then we're truly on the downward spiral to extinction...
                  Last edited by Phoenix; 04-23-2017, 09:44 PM.

                  Comment

                  • Soldier of Macedon
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 13670

                    #99
                    Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                    Beneath the makeup, they're the same fascists as they always were.
                    Their earlier history is truly disgraceful and even some of their political positions today raise concern, but to say they're the same fascists as their predecessors is a stretch.
                    Let's hope the French don't do the same mistake as us and fall for it.
                    Not directly tied to your above statement, but do you support the preservation of the EU?
                    As far as antisemitic and nazi statements is concerned, she denied France's role in the Vel d'Hiv, the rounding up of over 13.000 French Jews and sending them to the Nazi death camps.
                    Apparently the current national narrative blames France as a whole, whereas she's trying to shift the blame to those in power at the time. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. The whole of France can't be blamed for what happened, but at the same time, the Vichy government did have a level of support from certain segments of French society. Her remark may have been poorly (and not thoroughly) worded and therefore insensitive, but she doesn't deny that the incident took place.
                    She also stated that besides banning the muslims from wearing a hijab and niqab, the jews should also be banned from wearing the kippah, Le Pen has publicly asked the Jews to make that "small sacrifice".
                    Jews shouldn't be banned from wearing the kippah. That's just stupid.
                    And while some of these points can be seen and pass as protection of national identity, they are discriminatory to say the least.
                    You obtained these points from this link in the other thread which you mentioned:

                    As Marine Le Pen, who heads France’s far-right National Front (FN), tries to form a eurosceptic group in Brussels with other like-minded political movements, FRANCE 24 takes a look at her party’s policies.


                    Just a few things. You wrote:
                    -Priority to be given to ethnic French over other French citizens for jobs and for social housing.
                    It doesn't write that in the link. It writes "priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing".
                    -Family benefits, including child support, to be only available to French families (or where at least one parent is French).
                    By French families is it referring to French citizens?
                    -A reduction in legal immigration to France from the current 200,000 a year to 10,000.
                    Do you feel that France should be obligated to accept 200,000 legal immigrants per year?

                    I have tried to look for their platform but can only find the French version. If you have it in English, please share.
                    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                    Comment

                    • DraganOfStip
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2011
                      • 1253

                      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                      Not directly tied to your above statement, but do you support the preservation of the EU?
                      I don't have a stance on that, different people in different EU countries have different experiences, so I guess it goes down to how EU rules/policies work, and I'm really not into legislation. In order to form an opinion about that, one must thoroughly study how the EU works instead of just relying on pro/anti EU movements propaganda.

                      Apparently the current national narrative blames France as a whole, whereas she's trying to shift the blame to those in power at the time.
                      Don't they all? Germany can then blame the regime in power in WW2 for the atrocities, so can Japan for their war crimes in Asia and the Pacific during the Japanese Empire etc etc, there are numerous examples.
                      It's the perfect excuse isn't it?

                      Her remark may have been poorly (and not thoroughly) worded and therefore insensitive, but she doesn't deny that the incident took place.
                      Of course she doesn't, the event is too well recorded in history and there are many evidence it happened. Had it not been the case however, I doubt we'd be seeing the same story.

                      You obtained these points from this link in the other thread which you mentioned:

                      As Marine Le Pen, who heads France’s far-right National Front (FN), tries to form a eurosceptic group in Brussels with other like-minded political movements, FRANCE 24 takes a look at her party’s policies.


                      Just a few things. You wrote:

                      It doesn't write that in the link. It writes "priority to be given to French citizens over foreigners for jobs and for social housing".
                      That particular part was taken from another link where it was stated that ethnic French will be prioritized for these points, as well as that non-French will be additionally taxed regarding employment in order to discourage French companies employing them, but I can't seem to find it now. I will make sure to post it if I run across it again.

                      By French families is it referring to French citizens?
                      Well, just replace the word "French" with "Macedonian" and tell me how would you interpret this?
                      Here when someone says "Macedonian families" it usually means families of ethnic Macedonians, and when someone says "Macedonian citizens" it usually means holders of a Macedonian passport.
                      It could mean families of French citizens but it could also mean families of ethnic French.
                      They could have specified that but didn't, which I assume was intentional because it creates a loophole for denouncing possible nationalistic accusations.

                      Do you feel that France should be obligated to accept 200,000 legal immigrants per year?
                      No one obliges France to accept legal immigrants. I assume this was official French policy, but you have to agree that reducing this number from 200 000 to 10 000 is a very large decrease.
                      And then you also have this, where she apparently pledges to end same-sex marriages: http://www.pinknews.co.uk/2017/02/14...-sex-marriage/
                      Like I said, many points of their program can pass off as simply preserving and protecting French identity, but also many other points are outright discriminatory and nationalistic.
                      By the way, do you support Le Pen and her policy?
                      Last edited by DraganOfStip; 04-24-2017, 05:13 AM.
                      ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                      ― George Orwell

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
                        I don't have a stance on that, different people in different EU countries have different experiences, so I guess it goes down to how EU rules/policies work, and I'm really not into legislation. In order to form an opinion about that, one must thoroughly study how the EU works instead of just relying on pro/anti EU movements propaganda.
                        Do you think Macedonia should strive to enter the EU?
                        Don't they all? Germany can then blame the regime in power in WW2 for the atrocities, so can Japan for their war crimes in Asia and the Pacific during the Japanese Empire etc etc, there are numerous examples. It's the perfect excuse isn't it?
                        That can definitely be used as a convenient excuse in many cases. But it should be noted that the status of Vichy France during WWII was probably somewhere between Germany and the Independent State of Croatia. It wasn't a puppet state like Croatia, but it was a client state. And that was only in the southern part of France. The northern part was under direct Nazi occupation. So, while a significant portion of the French population bore some collective responsibility for what took place, one could perhaps argue that not all of France was to blame.
                        Of course she doesn't, the event is too well recorded in history and there are many evidence it happened.
                        I suppose that may be one thing that separates her from her father, in that she didn't downplay the suffering endured by the Jews during WWII (at least in this instance).
                        It could mean families of French citizens but it could also mean families of ethnic French. They could have specified that but didn't, which I assume was intentional because it creates a loophole for denouncing possible nationalistic accusations.
                        Or it could be that France 24 didn't cite the point accurately, for whatever reason. That is why it would've been handy to read the English translation of the original.
                        No one obliges France to accept legal immigrants. I assume this was official French policy, but you have to agree that reducing this number from 200 000 to 10 000 is a very large decrease.
                        Temporarily lowering the immigration quota from time to time may mitigate the potential development of more 'ghettos'. It may also encourage newer migrants to adjust to the host culture and integrate into mainstream society more effectively. That said, this is a very large decrease, especially for a country with a population of 66 million. I'd have to assume that the economy, open borders, illegal immigration and demographic changes have been influential factors in that policy decision.
                        By the way, do you support Le Pen and her policy?
                        I agree with her anti-EU stance, her pursuit of national sovereignty and her desire to preserve the traditional culture and character of her home country. I'm not so sure I agree with all of her motives, the way she wants to go about achieving her objectives or how far she wants to expand on them. Would I support her in these elections if I was French? I don't know enough specifics about her platform to determine if the positives outweigh the negatives (and there are a number of negatives, on that I agree). I don't know much about the guy she is running against either, other than that he seems like another EU lackey. Anyway, below is a link to her 144 point platform, but unfortunately it's in French.

                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Philosopher
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1003

                          Originally posted by SoM
                          I agree with her anti-EU stance, her pursuit of national sovereignty and her desire to preserve the traditional culture and character of her home country. I'm not so sure I agree with all of her motives, the way she wants to go about achieving her objectives or how far she wants to expand on them. Would I support her in these elections if I was French? I don't know enough specifics about her platform to determine if the positives outweigh the negatives (and there are a number of negatives, on that I agree). I don't know much about the guy she is running against either, other than that he seems like another EU lackey. Anyway, below is a link to her 144 point platform, but unfortunately it's in French.

                          https://www.marine2017.fr/wp-content...ine-le-pen.pdf
                          The National Front has some good points in its platform, her anti-EU stance, for example, is one of them, but the platform also engenders very grave concerns on civil liberties.

                          I still think she is the best candidate in the French race available, even with all the qualms I have with the party.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Well, the "Centrist" (read Socialist) candidate with a wife old enough to be his mother, has just won the French elections.

                            Emmanuel Macron walked solemnly into the courtyard of the Louvre museum to the strains of Beethoven’s ‘Ode to Joy’, the European Union anthem, amid rapturous cheering by tens of thousands of supporters.

                            8 MAY 2017

                            Emmanuel Macron walked solemnly into the courtyard of the Louvre museum to the strains of Beethoven’s ‘Ode to Joy’, the European Union anthem, amid rapturous cheering by tens of thousands of supporters. The symbolism was evident. Mr Macron favours EU reform but remains a fervent supporter of the bloc. The first foreign leader he spoke to after his victory was Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, in what was described as a "warm" phone call.
                            I guess in that moment of triumph the French anthem didn't quite cut it for this overtly pro-EU fellow. Anyway, if the below picture is any indication of the future, it suggests that people east of the Rhine will continue 'influencing' ole Gaul for some time to come.

                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • Vangelovski
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 8531

                              Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
                              Well, the "Centrist" (read Socialist) candidate with a wife old enough to be his mother, has just won the French elections.

                              Emmanuel Macron walked solemnly into the courtyard of the Louvre museum to the strains of Beethoven’s ‘Ode to Joy’, the European Union anthem, amid rapturous cheering by tens of thousands of supporters.


                              I guess in that moment of triumph the French anthem didn't quite cut it for this overtly pro-EU fellow. Anyway, if the below picture is any indication of the future, it suggests that people east of the Rhine will continue 'influencing' ole Gaul for some time to come.

                              His wife is what the rest of the west would call a paedophile and sent to prison. She was his 40 year old school teacher abusing her position of authority by having an affair with him at age 15.

                              He probably needs psychological help, not the leadership of the French state and the keys to its nuclear arsenal.
                              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                                His wife is what the rest of the west would call a paedophile and sent to prison. She was his 40 year old school teacher abusing her position of authority by having an affair with him at age 15.

                                He probably needs psychological help, not the leadership of the French state and the keys to its nuclear arsenal.
                                To say that it's both weird and concerning would probably be an understatement. But this is the guy who the majority of French citizens have voted in to be their leader. The same guy who loathes his own national identity so much, that he also said the following during his campaign:
                                There is no such thing as French culture
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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