United Macedonia Diaspora

[Soldier of Macedon]

Way too many, but in the bigger picture they aren't that many, and they are steadily being weeded out, for all Macedonians to see....

[Prolet]

What is the purpose of the existence of an independent Republic of Macedonia?

On 8th of September 1991 in a referendum 86% of our citizens decided for our country to break away from the then Yugoslavia. We are a democratic country with a democratic government, the purpose of our existence is to provide continuity and good and prosperous life for its citizens.

We have every right to exist as a nation and as a country, the UN law clearly states that every country has the right to name themselves as they like.

[Rogi]

the purpose of our existence is to provide continuity and good and prosperous life for its citizens

That is where we differ. Where I would have said

The purpose of Macedonia's existence is to be the nation-state and home of the Macedonian people and the guardian of the Macedonian name, identity, language culture and history, as well as provide a prosperous life for the Macedonian people AND it's citizens

I asked what is the purpose of the existence of the Republic of Macedonia, not a generic question about the existence of any state, but rather whether there is an ideological purpose for the existence of the Republic of Macedonia.

If there is no such ideological purpose to Macedonia's existence, then for those with such views, it makes no difference if Macedonia exists or not, they are indifferent to whether they are citizens of Macedonia or citizens of any country, because they view the state based around citizenship, not the Macedonian people.

Whereas, if you view is that there is an ideological purpose to the existence of the Republic of Macedonia as the home and guardian of the Macedonian people and the Macedonian identity, then you would understand why there is no such thing as being 'forced to choose' and changing the name, because that goes against the very ideological purpose for the existence of the Republic of Macedonia. It is Macedonia, or nothing.

[Soldier of Macedon]

We have every right to exist as a nation and as a country, the UN law clearly states that every country has the right to name themselves as they like.

Yet you are comfortable with falling to one knee before the final round is over. Macedonians are made of sterner stuff, pull yourself together Prolet.

[Prolet]

SOM, Did we change our name yes or no?? we didnt do it then and i never pushed for a name change ever. We where lied to by our own people, we have Kiro Gligorov as a president calling us SLavs for gods sake its easy to talk now but back then things where different.

SOM, I advise you to have a chat with Gruevski or anybody close to him and see if you can get the real picture. The whole democratic chat is pointless because it will never be accepted from the other side even if every single one of us agreed to it.

Phoenix, I gave the Ohrid Accord as an example to how we were forced to sign it, the name change is a different kettle of fish all together. No country would go through all that trouble to force us to change our name just because Greece doesnt like it, so no name change.

[Prolet]

The purpose of Macedonia's existence is to be the nation-state and home of the Macedonian people and the guardian of the Macedonian name, identity, language culture and history, as well as provide a prosperous life for the Macedonian people AND it's citizens

And that was decided in the referendum back in 1991, i agree with your theory.

Yet you are comfortable with falling to one knee before the final round is over. Macedonians are made of sterner stuff, pull yourself together Prolet.

SOM, Im pulling myself together and i've never ever pushed for a name change not in 1991 not in 1995 not in 2001 not in 2006 and certainly not now. You've accused me of twisting your words what are you doing now?? We are arguing about something that doesn't exist, Democratic Republic of Macedonia was never an option and it was never put on the table by the Greek side it wasnt until our delegation fully told the people what the situation really was and that was to change everything there is to our country. Our name our identity change of our id cards,passports everything something that even the Albanians wouldnt agree to, this so called red line by the Greeks was in place while SDSM where negotiating with them yet they never disclosed it in public now that we know what the Greeks want well its easy to tell them where to go...

And yes Rogi pull out of the negotiations right now, i fully support what you are stating.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Prolet, you made your position clear some posts ago. A name change was acceptable to you when we were at our weakest, now that we are 'stronger', a name change is not acceptable to you.

Tesko tebe za pamet.

[Soldier of Macedon]

You've accused me of twisting your words what are you doing now??

Prolet, your consistency at being inconsistent is amazing. Don't accuse me of such things because you are incapable of remembering what you wrote yourself. On post #319 of this thread you wrote:

I'd rather be called Demkratska Republika Makedonija then Severna Makedonija, but now there will be no name change whats so ever.

Drug pat ne ripai, not now and not ever should a name change be contemplated. You should rather the Republic of Macedonia.

[Prolet]

No SOM you made up your own mind and conclusion. I said we where in a weaker position when Meto made that statement on Za Makedonskite Raboti, i said if i was forced to change my name i would rather change it to DRM then Severna or Gorna Makedonija (Nova Makedonija is already taken) this is a forced choice if it gets to that stage and no it hasnt gotten to that stage and it never will.

So according to your theory Nikola Gruevski is a traitor because he apparently accepted Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) but how can he be a traitor when our name wasnt changed?? How can you judge anybody when we havnt changed our name??

SOM, We just found out that Greece spent over $160 Million on trying to wipe our name what did we in the Diaspora do?? we got to that stage because we have corrupted journalists and traitors in our country, we in the Diaspora also failed and we are still arguing over petty issues. We've spent months and months arguing about a name that does not exist what is it with all these "IF" questions??

If i put a gun to your head and force you to change you name you will do it, thats what forcing is, being in a check mate position and you have no other choice but to do what you are told. We are not in that position and we never where, however we had cowards who made our people in the republic feel that way and when people are scared they will always believe you no matter what you tell them to do. Did you even bother to watch the Mirka Velinovska interview?? Why do you think she is pushing for all journalists,lawyers,judges to implement the law on Lustracija?? Because these idiots where the ones who pushed us to change our name, that if we dont change our name we would be isolated,fall apart,threat of war, they got the Albanians to make ridiculous statements, that if we dont change our name in 6 months the Albanians will make problems ect etc somebody payed them to say that over and over again and now it needs to stop and it should be punished by law.

[Soldier of Macedon]

No SOM you made up your own mind and conclusion. I said we where in a weaker position when Meto made that statement on Za Makedonskite Raboti, i said if i was forced to change my name i would rather change it to DRM then Severna or Gorna Makedonija ..........

Prolet, that was your first paragraph, read what you wrote a little later in your last paragraph:

If i put a gun to your head and force you to change you name you will do it, thats what forcing is, being in a check mate position and you have no other choice but to do what you are told. We are not in that position and we never where........

And now let's look at what you wrote earlier:

SOM, During the SFRJ era we where called Socijalisticka Republika Makedonija, I'd rather be called Demkratska Republika Makedonija then Severna Makedonija, but now there will be no name change whats so ever. 3 years ago we where in a much tougher position and we where fueled with fear that somehow we wont exist as a country anymore and that we will be isolated pretty much what the Opposition was trying to point out.

But now? But before, even though we were never 'forced' or in a 'checkmate' position, you would 'rather' Democratic? Why would you even choose one, when none are acceptable? I am having trouble keeping up with everything you're saying Prolet, I think that half the time you are just spewing up the first words that come to your mind.

So according to your theory Nikola Gruevski is a traitor because he apparently accepted Republic of Macedonia (Skopje) but how can he be a traitor when our name wasnt changed??

I am not speaking with Nikola Gruevski, and Nikola Gruevski does not speak like you. Can you show me the evidence of his apparent acceptance? If the Macedonian PM jumped off a bridge, would you follow him?

And Prolet, I specifically recall saying that you are not a traitor. You suggestions are very misguided mate, razbudise tro.

[Buktop]

Buktop,

Weren't you arguing black and blue that Meto had answered all these questions and that we had all been debunked??? Or is this the first time you actually watched the video clip?

No actually, I wasn't.

I have watched the video clip several times

I wasn't aware that Meto had responded.

[Buktop]

No problem Buktop, glad you are able to acknowledge this.

We both know, neither the UN, EU or NATO are interested in entertaining perpetual name changes within their respective organisations. Meto didn't indicate any further ammendments, and that part of him I can understand, because when you're 'winging it' you can't really foresee and influence the future, let alone make suggestions that are intended to eventuate at a later date. He certainly didn't indicate that it was a temporary suggestion, although having not done so has allowed him to take advantage of an exit route where he can alternatively claim it "was" a temporary suggestion. To be quite honest, I don't think that Meto himself knew exactly what he was suggesting. It is a terrible interview, but it could have been explained with some honesty and integrity, rather than the way it subsequently was.

I am yet to meet another Macedonian in the Diaspora who was prepared to be called a 'democratic Macedonian' at the UN, the table of nations. All of us want to rid ourselves of the artificial acronym that is officially in use at the UN, but I am also yet to meet another Macedonian who was prepared to exchange the acronym for anything other than the (Republic of) Macedonia. I have found such Macedonians on the internet only.

While I was prepared to excuse Meto's ZMR interview and some other sorry examples as errors in judgement and/or wording, the sheer denials have unfortunately confirmed, for me at least, that this person is not fit or capable to be the leading voice of the Macedonian Diaspora. And thank God, he isn't. Too many times Buktop, these flip-flop 'leaders' have let us down. The Macedonian Diaspora are toughening up, and they want to see strength, integrity and consistency in the people who speak for them, they want their voice represented, and they don't want to be treated as insignificant pawns that can be fed any sort of lie or distortion.

Meto was not representing the voice or expressing the view of the Macedonian Diaspora in the ZMR interview. And his refusal to admit to this mistake indicates to me, that he cannot be honest with himself. So how on earth can he be honest with the Macedonian Diaspora, the people he claims to represent?

Ask him yourself Buktop, can you ask Meto if he accepted a name change and an effectively 3-name 'concept' in the ZMR interview? He will deny it, coeko sam se prai budala.

I will ask him.

[Risto the Great]

I will ask him.

I have. No answer. Let us know how you go.

[Buktop]

Buktop, you 'missed' Meto's triple-name formula suggestion when you were preoccupied with diverting this part of the debate with your constitutional gluposti...

Buktop, cut the bullshit...your post is full of shit, at the start you saw the light for the first time after SoM guided you in the right direction, then you ask the question was it permanent or temporary and finally you finish by stating you understand Meto...

You're an idiot Buktop, you're not fooling anybody with your goody two-shoes routine...

I saw it, I didn't know that Meto responded to it.

Constitutional gluposti? If you would even make an effort to understand what the constitution says you sure as hell wouldn't be calling it gluposti.

Phoenix, seeing as you don't understand what I write, let me sink down to your level for one post.

Phoenix, You haven't made 2 posts that haven't had my name in them, and you havent said shit about anything but me for 2 weeks. You need to get your head out of your ass and get laid before your fucking empty head explodes. You seem to be so infatuated with me that you get a stiffy every time I post. Why don't you address the issues rather than write bullshit about me? Kiss my

Okay back to normal now, Phoenix, why don't you explain to me how stating that I understand Meto means I'm full of shit? Why don't you explain to me how a genuine curiosity into the official proposal is bullshit?

I have had enough of your fucking ignorance Phoenix

[Vangelovski]

No actually, I wasn't.

I have watched the video clip several times

I wasn't aware that Meto had responded.

We all know that you were, here and on Maknews - you've been claiming that Paul/Pelister has been "debunked" by several peolpe - and all he did was post Meto's comments.