United Macedonia Diaspora

[vicsinad]

It was not a dark hour for Macedonia.
Let alone, it was not one of Macedonia's darkest hours.

And no, we did not take Greece to court to force them to accept us as FYROM. That was not the intention nor the effect of this court decision.

[Vangelovski]

And no, we did not take Greece to court to force them to accept us as FYROM. That was not the intention nor the effect of this court decision.

Read the ICJ application - that is exactly the intention and effect. Do you know why it was one of the darkest hours of Macedonian history? Because Macedonians voluntarily violated their own rights. In all the examples you cited it was other's who violated the rights of Macedonians. This was by far the most horrible act of self-loathing.

You're not a law student at all - you're nothing more than a BS artist. Did you used to post here as 'Buktop'?

[Vangelovski]

For Victor (the guy who claims that the Turkish speaking "greek" immigrants have a legitimate claim to Egej):

The Applicant [Macedonia] requests the Court:

(i) to adjudge and declare that the Respondent [Greece], through its State organs and
agents, has violated its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the
Interim Accord ;

(ii) to order that the Respondent immediately take all necessary steps to comply
with its obligations under Article 11, paragraph 1, of the Interim Accord, and
to cease and desist from objecting in any way, whether directly or indirectly, to
the Applicant’s membership of the North Atlantic Treaty Organization and/or
of any other “ international, multilateral and regional organizations and
institutions ” of which the Respondent is a member, in circumstances where
the Applicant is to be referred to in such organizations or institutions by the
designation provided for in paragraph 2 of United Nations Security Council
resolution 817 (1993).

Do you know what this means pretend law student? It means that Macedonia applied to the ICJ to have it enforce the Interim Accord, and in particular, the provisions obliging Greece to accept the name FYROM in any organisation in which Macedonia applies for membership.

[vicsinad]

Huh, and some of you think Brian's the conspiracy theorist...

Yes, it means Macedonia wanted the ICJ to enforce the Interim Accord. No, it wasn't because Macedonia wants to continue to be recognized as FYROM -- it's because they want to join NATO and they don't want Greece stopping them from joining NATO and other organizations. FYROM is a consequence of the politics of the 90s.

Though I explained my reasoning for all this earlier (about the IA and FYROM) and I don't like circling.

Haha pretend law student...is that all your over-thinking and over-struggling mind could come up with?

[Vangelovski]

Huh, and some of you think Brian's the conspiracy theorist...

Yes, it means Macedonia wanted the ICJ to enforce the Interim Accord. No, it wasn't because Macedonia wants to continue to be recognized as FYROM -- it's because they want to join NATO and they don't want Greece stopping them from joining NATO and other organizations. FYROM is a consequence of the politics of the 90s.

Though I explained my reasoning for all this earlier (about the IA and FYROM) and I don't like circling.

Haha pretend law student...is that all your over-thinking and over-struggling mind could come up with?

Victor, you can paint it any way you like and provide whatever excuses you can come up with. Macedonia asked the ICJ to make a determination on enforcing the Interim Accord and in particular Greece's acceptance of the FYROM terminology. This was a disgrace - amateurish at best and pure treason at worst.

[Risto the Great]

However, that's not saying anything else about the plenty of other concerns people have with UMD.

vicsinad, from what I can gather from your posts subsequent to the above statement, you subscribe to much of what Meto believes in. Just because your father denounced them does not mean you should follow his path. You're more aligned with Meto than you might think by the looks of it.

I don't know why or how clever people like you can manage to muddle your focus so much. Lending support to the ICJ case and anything else with FYROM in the equation is not good for the Macedonian identity. Keep it simple son. Because we have seen the "complexity" of the situation and how it has crippled Macedonia over the last 20 years. It is a cancer that is ripe for treatment.

What a piss weak extension to this already miserable thread.

Perhaps we can have a vote for what represents Macedonians mostly:

1. Dumb Macedonians pretending to sound smart
2. Smart Macedonians pretending to sound dumb

[vicsinad]

Risto:

First, aside from the fact that mentioning my father is irrelevant, he and I don't really discuss Meto or UMD, so I really don't know much more about his UMD views than what he wrote about in his MPO/UMD paper.

Second, I barely know Meto or anyone in UMD. I've met Meto once or maybe twice when some of us in Detroit were trying to get MOYANA going. I was a UMD member in its earlier years, but I think for no more than a year.

Third, there are things, that I've see come out of UMD, that I agree and disagree with, same as with the MTO. That said, I support both MTO and the UMD. This may be labeled as hypocritical, dumb, weak, etc. and that's fine. But I see it as two different organizations both working for what they believe is in the best interests of Macedonia and Macedonians -- your "what to do" and "how to dos" differ, and some things they do (say) that you don't do I agree with, and the other way around. On top of that, based much on this thread, I understand there are many passionate views on how/what UMD should/shouldn't be doing, thus my qualifier that you quoted.

Fourth, I commend the MTO (from what I gather, includes at least Vangelovski, Risto, and Soldier) for doing good things. I think Vangelovski could probably benefit himself and the Cause by disagreeing less disrespectfully, but I don't think that takes much away from the work you guys are doing.

[Vangelovski]

But I see it as two different organizations both working for what they believe is in the best interests of Macedonia and Macedonians -- your "what to do" and "how to dos" differ, and some things they do (say) that you don't do I agree with, and the other way around.

The views of the MTO and UMD are fundamentally opposed. Its not just a matter of 'strategy', but basic fundamental beliefs. If it were merely differences in method, then we would have no problem supporting them just like we support the AMHRC. While we may have minor peripheral differences with the AMHRC, we agree on the core fundamentals.

I think Vangelovski could probably benefit himself and the Cause by disagreeing less disrespectfully.

You are right about this. I let the 'fire' in me take control too often. This does not mean that I don't think you are contradictory and hypocritical, nor does it mean that I agree with some of your core beliefs, which are basically the same as the UMD. But it does mean that at times I let loose and it is inappropriate.

[vicsinad]

Vangelovski:

Maybe you do have different fundamental beliefs. But I don't think that UMD is anti-Macedonian: I think they're for advancing Macedonian minority rights in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania; I think that they are for the territorial integrity of Macedonia; and I think they are for preserving the Macedonian identity and culture. While I am by no means suggesting anybody work together here with them, I still don't see everything about them as fundamentally opposed to what everything MTO stands for.

That's fine, you can think my views are hypocritical and contradictory; I think they're not. Do I and have I changed my mind? Yes, I have and yes i do...the more I'm exposed to different ideas and ways of thinking I will alter my beliefs and opinions. I don't feel like I always need to justify that, and that's one reason why I'm here on this forum: if I can offer any different insight that anyone cares about, fine. But if I can get different insight, that helps me out a lot.

I'm still young and my views will still change...I still struggle in trying to fight for what would be ideal rather than accepting reality and acting based from how things are really and how they're likely to proceed. I went from being religious to anti-religious to accepting it's cultural importance in my life. I went from omnivore to vegan to vegetarian. I went from being blindly Macedonian to hating the idea of ethnicity to genuinely loving Macedonian culture. And I went from supporting big government to being a proponent for state and local governments. I don't find changing my mind as being weak or hypocritical...I just constantly reevaluate where I'm at and constantly justify what I believe in. If new ideas, experiences and facts appear, I may find it no longer possible to justify where I stand and I have to change. Or the same may happen if I reevaluate old facts and experiences.

I say that because while you disagree with what I'm saying and believe in, it might just be better to let your beliefs and ideas stand for themselves without the excess, and probably less people who could be of some use to the cause will feel turned off or isolated (I think that applies to a lot of people, not just particularly you). I understand the emotional component, I just think emotions only reassure people who are already completely on board with whatever argument you make.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Today, I will briefly make a few personal points regarding the upcoming NATO summit in Chicago.
- Macedonia will NEVER be accepted under the Republic of Macedonia in the United Nations.
- Macedonia MUST change their name if they expect to join either NATO or the EU.
- United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) is NOT really NGO’s rather PRO GOVERNMENTS excluding the obvious Greece, Bulgaria and Albania.
- The, special dinner for President Ivanov will be attended by approximately 300 elite Macedonians who willingly shell out $200 plus person to aid the UMD 50/50 spilt. NOTE: These types’ events the Macedonian elite purchase tables of 10 so at every table 8 person(s) are guests at $0.00 cost.
- Expect, to hear NOTHING NEW.

WHY SHOULD THE UMD NEVER BE TRUSTED? EmaiI response to me ... "don't know who you are but in North America they practice free speech. I am not part of umd but people and organizations are allowed the freedom to speak here. Take your concerns to them.
Sent from my BlackBerry® smartphone powered by Mobilicityl"

^ 100% A LIE

Mir, do site .. pozz

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=IM39yIKoSo4

Q. WE, WILL FIND OUT .. HOW, MUCH MONEY IS IVANOV PROMISED? $5,000? $10,000? 50%? 2012 Goce Delcev winner?
Wiki_is_Everywhere 24/7

[Vangelovski]

UMD's handing out another Goce Delcev award:

The United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) is proud to announce that His Excellency Janez Jansa, the Prime Minister of Slovenia, will be presented with UMD’s highest honor – the UMD Goce Delchev Award – at a Gala, this Saturday, May 19, 2012, in honor of His Excellency Dr. Gjorge Ivanov, the President of Macedonia, in advance of the NATO Summit in Chicago.

Apparantly every Macedonian in Slovenia is happy about this:

The Macedonian community of Slovenia, estimated between 17,000 – 20,000, applauded UMD’s decision today.

And UMD is still trying to speak on our behalf:

The global Macedonian Diaspora community is extremely grateful for Prime Minister Jansa’s courageous leadership in international affairs and close friendship with Macedonia.

Apparantly Jansa has had an impact on all of us:

The UMD Board of Directors unanimously selected Prime Minister Jansa as the second recipient of this Award, for his impact on Macedonia and Macedonians globally.

 
http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/664/1/ 

[George S.]

Tom,Correct me if i'm wrong but wasn't it slovenia that sided with the greeks & stopped the trade in macedonian wine in slovenia because it used the words Macedonia.If the people knew what was going on they wouldn't be giving out such shitty awards.They should be called sold out awards because that's what they are.I can't remember when slovenia did something for macedonia in the international affairs.
This is the bs quote of the century & it takes the cake://global Macedonian Diaspora community is extremely grateful for Prime Minister Jansa’s courageous leadership in international affairs and close friendship with Macedonia. " very insulting to say the least as not many of us would be too happy with slovenia.Once again the UMD has sold us out lock stock & barrel!

[Soldier of Macedon]

I am not sure if Janez Jansa has made any negative statements towards Macedonia. I know he has shown support for Gruevski and his party in the past. Does anybody know what good he has done for Macedonia?

[George S.]

All i could find is that Macedonia & slovenia have been allies since 1992.Also that Slovenia recognizes macedonia & supports Macedonia to get into Nato & & Eu & for
suporting slovenian companies to trade with macedonian companies.But how about the wine fiasco with greece stopping trade of macedonian wine between macedonia & slovenia Greece telling slovenia to stop.
So that's why they got an award for being our supposed friend.They get the Gotse delchev Award.TOP AWARD from the umd.
Even then as SOM says that it was for political support of gruevski it's like a payback.I wonder if these Gotse delchev awards are really as valuable as they claim top award .Do they open doors???

[Big Bad Sven]

Flexibility Urged In Macedonia Dispute
Skopje _ It would be a pity if Macedonia misses its chance to join NATO because of the name dispute with Greece, Slovenia's Prime Minister said Tuesday.
After meeting his Greek counterpart, Kostas Karamanlis in Ljubljana, Janez Jansa, the Prime Minister of Slovenia, which currently holds the European Union Presidency, called for “a quick compromise” to the 17 year long dispute.

He urged both Athens and Skopje to agree to a name for the Republic of Macedonia, which would "best" prevent a Greek veto of Macedonia's bid to join NATO.

Meanwhile Macedonia’s President Branko Crvenkovski wrote to all 26 NATO members Tuesday, urging them “not to let Greek threats of a veto come true."

http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/flexibility-urged-in-macedonia-dispute

When Slovenia was the head of the EU in the late 2000's, Janez Jansa the supposed "friend" of macedonia had the chance to actually help macedonia "solve" the name issue fairly, but instead towed the racist grik and EU line and forced macedonia to make "concessions".

Im not really sure you can call this person a friend of macedonia, but then again when you give the much respected and sort after Goce Delcev award to such flogs like Kiro Gligorov and Phil Reeker, it doesnt suprise me that this EU slave/puppet gets one as well

I cant remember when exactly Slovenia banned macedonian wines from entering its country and took the grik side, but it wouldnt suprise me if it happened during Jansa's turn in government. And even if it didnt im sure he must have set the ball rolling for it anyway.