Macedonian-Turkish relations

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  • Prolet
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 5241

    #76
    15,000 people to live there?

    YouTube - Турска компанија ќе гради кули во Аеродром
    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

    Comment

    • Onur
      Senior Member
      • Apr 2010
      • 2389

      #77
      Macedonian FM visits Turkish governor in Manisa

      Milososki visited the Governor after having been invited to the province by the Manisa Organized Industrial Zone.

      Macedonian Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki visited the Governor of western province of Manisa Celalettin Guvenc on Tuesday after having been invited to the province by the Manisa Organized Industrial Zone (MOSB).

      Milososki came to Guvencs office with the Macedonian Honorary Consul General Gaye Akcen.

      Speaking to reporters while visiting Governor Guvenc, Milososki said that Turkey and Macedonia shared a strong and permanent friendship.

      I want to express that our friendship is based on both economic relations and one to one relations. Around eight months ago, we hosted Governor Guvenc and businesspeople from the MOSB in Macedonia. I had made a promise during Guvencs visit. I promised that I would visit Manisa at the first opportunity and see how wonderful a system has been established at the MOSB. Not only Macedonia but other countries in the region and the world must look at the Manisa model. I have noticed how crucial are the projects in Manisa for Turkey, Milososki said.

      As the Macedonian government, we provide certain incentives to businesspeople. Those businesspeople willing to invest in Macedonia will find their taxes reduced for a period of 10 years, Milososki underlined.

      Governor Guvenc, in his part, said that Macedonia was a young republic and that he held talks in Macedonia eight months ago.

      Macedonia invites entrepreneurs and investors. Macedonia wants to cooperate with Turkey. Turkey is one of the countries that recognized Macedonia right after their declaration of independence. We have respect for the will of the Macedonian people and their republic. We support Macedonia. Bilateral projects will make our cultural, social, political and economic relations stronger, Guvenc also said.


      Milososki visited the Governor after having been invited to the province by the Manisa Organized Industrial Zone. Macedonian Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki visited the Governor of western provi…

      Comment

      • UMDiaspora.org
        Member
        • Oct 2009
        • 525

        #78
        There will be a group of Turkish parliament members visiting Macedonia from August 15-17th, organized by the Turkish Coalition of America and the United Macedonian Diaspora.
        For comments, questions, concerns, please contact us at:

        United Macedonian Diaspora
        http://www.umdiaspora.org

        1101 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW, 6th Floor, Washington, D.C. 20004, United States
        Phone: (202) 756-2244, Fax: (202) 756-7323, E-mail: [email protected]

        PO Box 2153, Hawthorn, Vic. 3122, Australia
        Phone: 0438 385 466, E-mail: [email protected]

        3555 St. Clair Avenue East, Toronto, ON, M1K 1L6, Canada
        Phone: 416-209-0448, E-mail: [email protected]

        Comment

        • Onur
          Senior Member
          • Apr 2010
          • 2389

          #79
          Originally posted by UMDiaspora.org View Post
          There will be a group of Turkish parliament members visiting Macedonia from August 15-17th, organized by the Turkish Coalition of America and the United Macedonian Diaspora.

          Thats great news but i hope there are few people from the opposition parties among the Turkish delegates since all the mayors of Aegean and Thrace provinces(except Istanbul) of the Turkey are the members of secular opposition party called CHP. These places are where the most immigrants from Macedonia lives too. Also, CHP will most likely be the ruling party after the next election at 2011 april.

          Comment

          • George S.
            Senior Member
            • Aug 2009
            • 10116

            #80
            Well we hope that some good can come from these alliances with turkey,If greece knows we have friends in "high "places so to speak then we have nothing to fear except fear itself.For arguments sake the greeks have commited more grave attrocities on the macedonians than anyone else.This is true as the greeks tried to wipe us all out from existence.
            "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
            GOTSE DELCEV

            Comment

            • Bratot
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 2855

              #81
              Turkish General: Macedonia is Not Greek!

              Erdogan Oznal

              In 1993 theTurkish General Erdogan Oznal as a leader of the National Military Association of Turkey participated in Symposium on the Balkan wars in Greece.
              On the brochures, books, on the banners of the hills of Athens, he saw and heard everywhere the same sentence: "Macedonia is Greece". Iritated, in front of 150 guests on the Symposium he said: "Macedonia is NOT Greece". After his returning to Turkey he wrote the book that shows that Macedonia is not Greek nor historical nor geographical, or ethnic!

              ERDOĞAN ZNAL
              (Hv. Plt. Korgeneral)

              MAKEDONYA YUNAN DEĞİLDİR - MACEDONIA is NOT GREECE

              T.C. GENELKURMAY BAŞKANLIĞI
              YAYINLARI

              ANKARA 1993
              81 SAYFA, 16 x 24, TEMİZ




              Во 1993 година турскиот генерал Ердоѓан Ознал како раководител на Националното воено здружение на Турција учествува на симпозиум за Балканските војни во Грција. На брошури, книги, на транспаренти по ридовите на Атина, секаде гледал и слушал иста реченица: "Македонија е Грција". Иритиран, пред 150 присутни на симпозиумот рекол: "Македонија не е Грција". По враќањето во Турција ја пишува книгата во која покажува дека Македонија не е Грција ни историски, ни географски, ниту пак етнички

              Грција лаже кога тврди дека во неа не живеат Македонци, дека таков народ не постои ниту пак дека има малцинство со такво име. Турскиот генерал во пензија Ердоѓан Ознал, автор на малата книга "Македонија не е Грција", низ податоци од Турскиот воен архив ја покажува жестоката асимилаторска политика на Грција кон Македонците. Откако со неа Грција не успева да го скрие постоењето на македонскиот народ, почнува да ги именува Македонците како "Славофони".

              "На пописот во 1904 година ги имаше 896.494, во 1913 година - 329.371, а на пописите во 1926 и 1940 година веднаш ги снема. Каде отиде македонскиот народ, што стана со него?", прашува во книгата Ознал, поаѓајќи од бројките од првиот попис што во 1904 го извршил генералниот инспектор за Македонија Хусеин Хилми паша, во трите дела на Македонија.

              Генерал Ознал (1938) има македонски корени - татко му е роден дојранец, кој за време на Балканските војни со родителите бега за Турција. Минатата недела беше прв пат во Македонија и ги обиколи местата за кои како дете слушал од татко му.
              "Имам измешани чувства. Среќен сум, но 5 дена се малку за сe што сакам да видам. Бев во Битола, Охрид, Струга, Тетово, го видов Мавровското Езеро, бев во Коџаџик (во Центар Жупа, н.з.) каде што е роден таткото на современа Турција Кемал Ататурк, бев во Свети Наум, во еден од најубавите манастири што досега сум ги видел, и сега сум во Дојран. Татко ми многу ми раскажуваше за Македонија. Бил многу тажен кога го напуштил Дојран. Иншала, ќе дојдам пак, можеби со внуците од двете ќерки. Дотогаш ќе го гледам дојранското крајбрежје на сликата што си ја купив овде", ни рече Ознал на средбата минатата недела во Дојран.

              Сега е генерал во турското воздухопловство, во пензија.
              "Во 1993 година бев шеф на оперативните активности во турскиот Генералштаб и раководител на Националното воено здружение на Турција кое беше една од 35-те членки на Здружението за меѓународна воена историја.

              Бев поканет во Грција на симпозиум за Балканските војни, на кој Турција, како земја против која се водеа Балканските војни, беше централна тема. За таа една недела, секаде слушав и гледав една иста реченица: 'Македонија е Грција'. Таа беше напишана на брошури, книги, на транспаренти по ридовите на Атина, ја изговараа сите Грци.

              Кренав рака и пред 150 присутни на симпозиумот реков: 'Македонија не е Грција'.

              Жена ми за време на паузата ме прекори: 'Престани, оти Грците ќе те истепаат'. Но реакција немаше. Сите молчеа, не сакајќи да си прават проблеми. Тоа уште повеќе ме иритирше. Кога се вратив во Турција реков дека ќе напишам книга во која ќе покажам дека ни историски, ни географски, ниту пак етнички, Македонија не е Грција", објаснува генерал Ознал.
              Книгата за напишал за помалку од еден месец.

              "Веднаш по објавувањето, на приватна средба грчкиот аташе во Турција ме праша каде да ја најде книгата, но не ми одреагира. Во грчките медиуми пишуваше - како може официјален претставник на една држава да пишува ваква книга, и такви текстови се појавуваа со недели", вели Ознал.

              Она што најмногу ги заболело Грците е фактот што, иако ставовите во книгата не се на официјална Турција, книгата е печатена во печатницата на турскиот Генералштаб и со тоа добива полуофицијален карактер.

              "Кога ја пишував книгата бев главен на воените историчари, иако јас не сум историчар по вокација, туку воен пилот. Во Воениот архив имав на располагање 8 милиони документи од 1853 година до 1974 година. Таму најдов дека од 1453 година кога султанот Мехмед Втори Фатих го освоил Истанбул, па сe до почетокот на 19 век македонскиот народ бил оставен да живее под Грчката патријаршија. Бидејќи македонскиот народ бил под посебна пресија за асимилација, на 11 март 1870 на Македонците им се дозволило да формираат своја црква, што говори дека Македонците и тогаш биле посебен народ", вели Ознал.

              "Македонскиот народ историски и етнички е посебен народ", "Секој народ сам си го избира своето име", "Македонскиот јазик е единствен", "Грција го лаже Балканот", "Грчките аспирации кон Македонија", "Историските, културните и етничките вистини на Македонците треба да се признаваат", се дел од насловите на поглавјата во книгата.

              "Заменик-државниот секретар на САД Строб Талбот во тоа време рече: 'Грција е новиот бик на Балканот што ја напаѓа Македонија'. Во книгата покажав дека не држи тезата оти Македонија била, е и секогаш ќе биде грчка. Грците велат: Нема македонска нација, нема македонски јазик, Македонците се грчки, антички племиња, Македонија е повеќе од 4.000 години комплетно грчка култура. Античките Македонци се Грци.

              Сегашните Македонци се словенски племиња, а Македонија никогаш не била држава во историјата. Јас во книгата давам контрааргументи и прашувам: Кои сте вие да наметнувате име. Грција успеа Македонија да се именува како 'Поранешна Југословенска Република Македонија'. Во време на Османлиската Империја, Грција беше административна област. Значи неа сега треба да ја викаме 'Поранешна Османлиска Република Грција' , а истото важи и за Бугарија и за Србија", укажува Ознал.

              "Во весникот 'Напредок' што излегува во Солун, а се печати на француски јазик, во бројот што излезе на 26 октомври 1926 година, се констатира дека егејскиот дел на Македонија целосно се погрчил. Во големата енциклопедија на Грција на страница 410 се вели:'Со вселувањето на Грците што се иселија од Турција во егејскиот дел на Македонија извршивме еден голем патриотски долг'", забележал Ознал во книгата.

              "Во 1990 година службите за човекови права во САД јавно проговорија дека Македонците како што ги има во Република Македонија, во Бугарија и во Албанија, ги има и во Грција. Иако Грција беше бесна, оваа констатација за постоењето на Македонци во оваа земја беше од голема полза светот да ја дознае вистината.

              Ако не постоеше овој народ и оваа нација, зошто Караманлис во 1992 леејќи крокодилски солзи на аеродромот во Солун рече дека Киро Глигоров ќе се кае за она што го вели и што го прави", стои во книгата издадена 1993 година.



              The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

              Comment

              • Onur
                Senior Member
                • Apr 2010
                • 2389

                #82
                Everyone in Turkey with at least elementary school level of information about his own history realizes that Macedonia is NOT Greece. This is not related with anti-Greek stance or something else either, since already Turkish education doesn't teach us to hate from Greeks or anyone else unlike the Greek education policy does. This information is purely based on our state archives and true history.

                But kudos to the General who stand up and say "Macedonia is not Greece" in a symposium at Greece with international guests
                Looks like he got irritated so much by the false propaganda in the symposium and he published a book based on Turkish military archives.
                Last edited by Onur; 09-06-2010, 04:15 AM.

                Comment

                • Daskalot
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 4345

                  #83
                  Good post Bratot, but we need to have it translated into English so all our readers can understand it.
                  Macedonian Truth Organisation

                  Comment

                  • Bratot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2855

                    #84
                    Anyone with more free time is more than welcomed to translate it.
                    The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

                    Comment

                    • Daniel the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Nov 2009
                      • 1084

                      #85
                      Translated into English by Google translate:

                      In 1993 Turkey's Erdogan Oznal as General Manager of the National Military Association of Turkey participate in the Symposium on the Balkan wars in Greece. Brochures, books, banners of the hills of Athens, seen and heard everywhere the same sentence: "Macedonia is Greece. Iritiran before attending the Symposium 150 said: "Macedonia is Greece. After returning to Turkey he wrote the book that shows that Macedonia is not Greece nor historical nor geographical, or ethnic.

                      Greece lies when it claims that Macedonians do not live, that this nation does not exist or that there is a minority with such a name. Retired Turkish general Oznal Erdogan, author of the little book "Macedonia is Greece", through data from the Turkish military archives shows asimilatorska fierce policy of Greece towards the Macedonians. After Greece it fails to conceal the existence of the Macedonian people began to name the Macedonians as "Slavofoni.

                      "The 1904 census there were 896,494 in 1913 - 329,371, and the censuses in 1926 and 1940 immediately disappears. Where went the Macedonian people, that happened to him?" He asked in his book Oznal, starting from the first numbers census carried out in 1904 Inspector General for Macedonia Hussein Hilmi Pasha, the three parts of Macedonia.

                      General Oznal (1938) has Macedonian roots - his father was born dojranec, who during the Balkan wars with parents flee to Turkey. Last week was the first time in Macedonia and went places that as a child heard from his father.
                      "I have mixed feelings. I am happy, but five days little about everything I want to see. I was in Bitola, Ohrid, Struga, Tetovo, I saw Mavrovo Lake was in Kodzhadzhik (in Centar Zupa, mn) where born father of modern Turkey Kemal Ataturk, was in St. Naum, one of the most beautiful monasteries so far I've seen, and now I'm Dojran. My father told me much about Macedonia. He was very sad when he left Dojran. Inshala will I come again, maybe the grandchildren of the two daughters. then you will see Dojran Coast image that I bought here, "he told us Oznal meeting last week in Dojran.

                      Now is general in the Turkish Air Force, retired.
                      "In 1993 I was head of operational activities in the Turkish General Staff and military head of the National Association of Turkey, which was one of 35 members of the International Association for Military History.

                      I was invited to Greece at the Symposium on the Balkan wars, in which Turkey, as a country against which they waged the Balkan wars, was a central theme. For this week, everywhere I looked and listened to a single sentence: "Macedonia is Greece '. It was written brochures, books, banners on the hills of Athens, he uttered all Greeks.

                      Raised my hand and the 150 present at the symposium said: "Macedonia is Greece '.

                      My wife during the break I said: 'Stop, he'll istepaat Greeks'. But there was no response. All were silent, not wanting to cause problems. It annoys me even more. When I returned to Turkey said it would write a book that will show us that history, nor geography nor ethnicity, Macedonia is not Greece, "explains General Oznal.
                      Wrote a book in less than a month.

                      "Immediately after announcing the private meeting Greek attache in Turkey asked me where to find the book, but I do odreagira. The Greek media wrote - how can an official of a state to write this book, these texts are appearing for weeks" said Oznal.

                      What most infected Greeks is the fact that, although the views in the book is not an official Turkey, the book is printed in the printing house of the Turkish General Staff and it gets poluoficijalen nature.

                      "When I wrote the book I was chief of military historians, although I am not a historian by vocation, but a military pilot. The military records available had 8 million documents from 1853 to 1974. He found that in 1453 when Sultan Mehmed II Fatih conquered Istanbul, until the early 19th century Macedonian people were left to live under the Greek Patriarchate. For the Macedonian nation was under special pressure for assimilation of March 11, 1870 Macedonians were allowed to form their own church, which argues that the Macedonians and then they were special people, "says Oznal.

                      "Macedonian nation is historically and ethnically distinct people", "Each nation himself chose the name", "language is unique," Greece lies to the Balkans, Greek aspirations towards Macedonia, "" historical, cultural and ethnic realities Macedonians should be recognized, are part of the titles of the chapters in the book.

                      "Deputy Secretary of State Strob Talbot at the time said:" Greece is the new bull in the Balkans that attacking Macedonia. 'The book showed that it holds the thesis that Macedonia was, is and always will be Greek. Greeks say: No Macedonian nation, not Macedonian, Macedonians are Greek, ancient tribes, Macedonia is more than 4,000 years of Greek culture completely. The ancient Macedonians were Greeks.

                      Current Macedonians are Slavic peoples, but Macedonia was never a country in history. In my book I give kontraargumenti and wonder: Who are you to impose any name. Macedonia Greece failed to name as 'Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia'. During the Ottoman Empire, Greece was an administrative area. So now it should be called 'the former Ottoman Greece' and the same applies to Bulgaria and Serbia, "suggests Oznal.

                      "The paper 'Progress' which comes out in Thessaloniki, and is printed in French, in the number appearing on October 26, 1926, conclude that the Aegean part of Macedonia fully pogrchil. The great encyclopedia of Greece on page 410 says: 'The Greeks vseluvanjeto that moved out of Turkey in the Aegean part of Macedonia conducted a major long Patriotic', Oznal noted in the book.

                      "In 1990 the services of Human Rights in the United States have spoken out publicly that the Macedonians as they have in the Republic of Macedonia, Bulgaria and Albania, are also in Greece. Although Greece was furious, the conclusion of the existence of Macedonians in this country was great benefit to the world know the truth.

                      If it were not for this nation and this nation, why Karamanlis in 1992 leejkji crocodile tears at the airport in Thessaloniki Kiro Gligorov said he will repent for what he says and what it does, "the book published in 1993.

                      Great thread Bratot.
                      Last edited by Daniel the Great; 09-06-2010, 03:26 PM.

                      Comment

                      • thessalo-niki
                        Banned
                        • Jun 2010
                        • 191

                        #86
                        Originally posted by daniel the great View Post
                        "The 1904 census there were 896,494 in 1913 - 329,371, and the censuses in 1926 and 1940 immediately disappears. Where went the Macedonian people, that happened to him?" He asked in his book Oznal, starting from the first numbers census carried out in 1904 Inspector General for Macedonia Hussein Hilmi Pasha, the three parts of Macedonia.
                        That doesn't seem compatible with the Ottoman census. Who is he counting in?

                        Originally posted by daniel the great View Post
                        He found that in 1453 when Sultan Mehmed II Fatih conquered Istanbul, until the early 19th century Macedonian people were left to live under the Greek Patriarchate. For the Macedonian nation was under special pressure for assimilation of March 11, 1870 Macedonians were allowed to form their own church, which argues that the Macedonians and then they were special people, "says Oznal.
                        Uh... that's the Bulgarian Exarchate, isn't it? The Sultan still owes a Macedonian Exarchate.
                        __________________________________
                        Odysseas Elytis - Our name is our soul

                        Comment

                        • Makedonetz
                          Senior Member
                          • Apr 2010
                          • 1080

                          #87
                          Thessa let me ask a question?

                          Seeing you are 100% sure Agean Macedonia belongs to greece can you speak this macedonian dialect? Surely like you guys put it its the same as english/scottish dialects.

                          Its funny i asked this once to a person who was calling me a skopianos and i asked him well if we are one of you im sure you must knowe this dialect along with your greek language....funny he couldnt reply
                          Makedoncite se borat
                          za svoite pravdini!

                          "The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"
                          - Goce Delchev

                          Comment

                          • Bratot
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 2855

                            #88
                            "The quality of relations with Macedonia from the military aspect is due to the fact that this country has always had a key geostrategic position in the Balkans. I will describe this time of the Ottoman Empire. The city of Bitola is known as a city of Consuls, but during the empire was very significant as the basis of the strongest and most equipped military units. And not only that, but Macedonia was the logistical center of the Ottoman army in the Balkans. Macedonia has always been treated as the heart of the Ottoman Empire, the most valuable piece of land. Its importance is not diminished even today. ''


                            "What is particularly important is that Turkey, along with Brazil, as two countries with similar economic and military development play a vital role in the Middle East. Turkey today is a key regional power that its action prevent a possible attack by Israel on Iran. ''

                            "The geography of the world haven't changed for a long time. Those rules that were applied in the past and today. Turkey is located in the center between Eurasia, the Middle East and Africa. He who controls this part of the world - rule the world. ''

                            "Macedonia as a central state in the Balkans plays an important role in the relation of forces. We have always admired Macedonia, not only because of the shared past, but as a country full of educated and intelligent people. If you didn't know, almost the entire intelligencia in the Ottoman Empire derived from the Balkan peoples. That the Turks were those less educated people in the Ottoman Empire. Turkey will always support Macedonia as much as possible, as the most friendly Balkan country. ''


                            Erdogan Oznal for Makfax agency.
                            The purpose of the media is not to make you to think that the name must be changed, but to get you into debate - what name would suit us! - Bratot

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                            • Eddie_rebel
                              Member
                              • Nov 2009
                              • 140

                              #89

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                              • makedonin
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1668

                                #90
                                Originally posted by thessalo-niki View Post
                                That doesn't seem compatible with the Ottoman census. Who is he counting in?
                                Before you countinue to talk about Ottoman census, you really need to learn something new about it. Since you skiped the post there in the history section, here is it for you again. Click here.

                                There is much more of this stuff if you take your time look into the thread here. Brows through it, read it and than we can talk. Otherwise you are only spaming, or you are openly denying it, which leads you purposely denying our identity. I see the later as more likely to be the case.
                                Last edited by makedonin; 09-07-2010, 10:30 AM.
                                To enquire after the impression behind an idea is the way to remove disputes concerning nature and reality.

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