Who are the Slavs? - Citations and Sources

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  • Po-drum
    Junior Member
    • Mar 2009
    • 66

    I don't get it.
    What's the problem if macedonian language is part of slavic group of languages???
    Macedonia - my shoulders from ruins and skies

    Comment

    • Delodephius
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 736

      Originally posted by julie View Post
      My past readings it was Macedonian influenced Russian via the Old Church Slavonic/Old Macedonian, St Clement in his missionary work as a student of Cyril and Methodius (it was not the Russians influencing the Macedonians there Delodephius.
      St Clement set out to do this as the Apostle Paul came to Ohrid in 1AD to spread the gospel
      Oh I'm not talking about that. I am very well aware of who spread OLD Church Slavonic to the rest of the Slavs, in fact I have a very detailed knowledge of that thank you very much. If you'll read my post carefully you'll see I mentioned that first.

      What I'm talking about is that the liturgical language that is read today in Macedonian, as well as in the rest of Orthodox Slavic Churches, is the Russian recension of the Old Church Slavonic language, know subsequently as simply Church Slavonic.

      Short history lesson:
      After Cyril and Methodius brought the language to Great Moravia and modified it slightly to fit the Moravian pronunciation, this was the first recension of the language. In other words, the Moravians didn't use the exact Macedonian dialect in their service, but a slightly modified one, in essence an artificial dialect. The same thing happened when Old Church Slavonic was brought to Bulgaria, Serbia, Russia and Croatia. Over centuries these modifications grew more and more, and so they are referred to by the name of the language under which they were done. This was due to Old Church Slavonic being similar to the native language of the writers and copyists that they modified the language based on their own's pronunciation. So, since the 11th century AD, or so, we have Macedonian Church Slavonic, Bulgarian Church Slavonic, Serbian Church Slavonic, Croatian Church Slavonic, Russian Church Slavonic, and even Ukrainian Church Slavonic. What most people don't know therefore is that Old Church Slavonic is simply a stage of the development of Slavonic from 9th until 11th century AD, whence it was still pretty much the same language as that of the Macedonians in Solun. After that it evolved into various forms that were all artificial in nature. In all modern Orthodox Slavic-speaking churches the language they use is not Old Church Slavonic, not the language that St. Cyril and St. Methodius used to translate the Bible, not the Old Macedonian dialect. Old Church Slavonic is only taught to the clergy so they can read older copies of the books as well as to university students who went to study a Slavic language, usually a two semester course. The language they used in the church today is Church Slavonic. But what recension you may ask? Well, since about the late 18th century the Serbian church adopted the Russian recension of Church Slavonic, Bulgarian did in the 19th century, and the Macedonian church did as well, or better yet kept using it once it established itself as a separate autonomous Church. All however pronounce the Church Slavonic language in their own way. So we basically have a Old Macedonian language that went through a Russian modification of changed grammar and vocabulary and then again pronounced in Macedonian, but the modern dialect. I hope that makes sense, but its all true, you can look it up in any grammar of Church Slavonic, that's is its history in short.
      अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
      उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
      This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
      But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

      Comment

      • julie
        Senior Member
        • May 2009
        • 3869

        Originally posted by Delodephius View Post
        Oh I'm not talking about that. I am very well aware of who spread OLD Church Slavonic to the rest of the Slavs, in fact I have a very detailed knowledge of that thank you very much. If you'll read my post carefully you'll see I mentioned that first.

        What I'm talking about is that the liturgical language that is read today in Macedonian, as well as in the rest of Orthodox Slavic Churches, is the Russian recension of the Old Church Slavonic language, know subsequently as simply Church Slavonic.

        Short history lesson:
        After Cyril and Methodius brought the language to Great Moravia and modified it slightly to fit the Moravian pronunciation, this was the first recension of the language. In other words, the Moravians didn't use the exact Macedonian dialect in their service, but a slightly modified one, in essence an artificial dialect. The same thing happened when Old Church Slavonic was brought to Bulgaria, Serbia, Russia and Croatia. Over centuries these modifications grew more and more, and so they are referred to by the name of the language under which they were done. This was due to Old Church Slavonic being similar to the native language of the writers and copyists that they modified the language based on their own's pronunciation. So, since the 11th century AD, or so, we have Macedonian Church Slavonic, Bulgarian Church Slavonic, Serbian Church Slavonic, Croatian Church Slavonic, Russian Church Slavonic, and even Ukrainian Church Slavonic. What most people don't know therefore is that Old Church Slavonic is simply a stage of the development of Slavonic from 9th until 11th century AD, whence it was still pretty much the same language as that of the Macedonians in Solun. After that it evolved into various forms that were all artificial in nature. In all modern Orthodox Slavic-speaking churches the language they use is not Old Church Slavonic, not the language that St. Cyril and St. Methodius used to translate the Bible, not the Old Macedonian dialect. Old Church Slavonic is only taught to the clergy so they can read older copies of the books as well as to university students who went to study a Slavic language, usually a two semester course. The language they used in the church today is Church Slavonic. But what recension you may ask? Well, since about the late 18th century the Serbian church adopted the Russian recension of Church Slavonic, Bulgarian did in the 19th century, and the Macedonian church did as well, or better yet kept using it once it established itself as a separate autonomous Church. All however pronounce the Church Slavonic language in their own way. So we basically have a Old Macedonian language that went through a Russian modification of changed grammar and vocabulary and then again pronounced in Macedonian, but the modern dialect. I hope that makes sense, but its all true, you can look it up in any grammar of Church Slavonic, that's is its history in short.
        Slovak, I don't need that condescending history lesson thank YOU very much, professor
        Macedonians were the first to use old Church Slavonic, I did not realise I was not allowed to have input on your thread!
        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

        Comment

        • Vangelovski
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 8531

          Originally posted by Delodephius View Post
          Oh I'm not talking about that. I am very well aware of who spread OLD Church Slavonic to the rest of the Slavs, in fact I have a very detailed knowledge of that thank you very much. If you'll read my post carefully you'll see I mentioned that first.

          What I'm talking about is that the liturgical language that is read today in Macedonian, as well as in the rest of Orthodox Slavic Churches, is the Russian recension of the Old Church Slavonic language, know subsequently as simply Church Slavonic.

          Short history lesson:
          After Cyril and Methodius brought the language to Great Moravia and modified it slightly to fit the Moravian pronunciation, this was the first recension of the language. In other words, the Moravians didn't use the exact Macedonian dialect in their service, but a slightly modified one, in essence an artificial dialect. The same thing happened when Old Church Slavonic was brought to Bulgaria, Serbia, Russia and Croatia. Over centuries these modifications grew more and more, and so they are referred to by the name of the language under which they were done. This was due to Old Church Slavonic being similar to the native language of the writers and copyists that they modified the language based on their own's pronunciation. So, since the 11th century AD, or so, we have Macedonian Church Slavonic, Bulgarian Church Slavonic, Serbian Church Slavonic, Croatian Church Slavonic, Russian Church Slavonic, and even Ukrainian Church Slavonic. What most people don't know therefore is that Old Church Slavonic is simply a stage of the development of Slavonic from 9th until 11th century AD, whence it was still pretty much the same language as that of the Macedonians in Solun. After that it evolved into various forms that were all artificial in nature. In all modern Orthodox Slavic-speaking churches the language they use is not Old Church Slavonic, not the language that St. Cyril and St. Methodius used to translate the Bible, not the Old Macedonian dialect. Old Church Slavonic is only taught to the clergy so they can read older copies of the books as well as to university students who went to study a Slavic language, usually a two semester course. The language they used in the church today is Church Slavonic. But what recension you may ask? Well, since about the late 18th century the Serbian church adopted the Russian recension of Church Slavonic, Bulgarian did in the 19th century, and the Macedonian church did as well, or better yet kept using it once it established itself as a separate autonomous Church. All however pronounce the Church Slavonic language in their own way. So we basically have a Old Macedonian language that went through a Russian modification of changed grammar and vocabulary and then again pronounced in Macedonian, but the modern dialect. I hope that makes sense, but its all true, you can look it up in any grammar of Church Slavonic, that's is its history in short.
          Thats nice. But when I go to church, both in Australia and in Macedonia, the service is in Modern Macedonian, not the Russian modifications of Old Macedonian or even Old Macedonian itself.
          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

          Comment

          • Delodephius
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 736

            Originally posted by julie View Post
            Slovak, I don't need that condescending history lesson thank YOU very much, professor
            Macedonians were the first to use old Church Slavonic, I did not realise I was not allowed to have input on your thread!
            अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
            उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
            This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
            But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

            Comment

            • julie
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 3869

              SoM, would you be able to point out to your mate Slovak, the rules we need to abide by in relation to posting a link without any explanation as to what is about please
              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Originally posted by Delodephius View Post
                Slovak, Julie has a point. No links without explanations.
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • Delodephius
                  Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 736

                  What's in the link is the explanation on itself. I found it pointless to write one then.
                  अयं निज: परो वेति गणना लघुचेतसाम्।
                  उदारमनसानां तु वसुधैव कुटुंबकम्॥
                  This is mine or (somebody) else’s (is the way) narrow minded people count.
                  But for broad minded people, (whole) earth is (like their) family.

                  Comment

                  • Vangelovski
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 8531

                    Originally posted by Delodephius View Post
                    What's in the link is the explanation on itself. I found it pointless to write one then.
                    If you don't write one, I'll find it pointless to keep your link. The rules apply to everyone.
                    If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                    The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                    Comment

                    • Soldier of Macedon
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 13670

                      That rule only applies for those who create new threads and only post a link.
                      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                      Comment

                      • julie
                        Senior Member
                        • May 2009
                        • 3869

                        SOM, in one of your posts you stated -
                        Cyril and Methodius called their language 'Slovjanski
                        Would you please critically corroborate the following question for clarification - Are Cyril and Methodius then Slavs or Macedonians ?
                        "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

                        Comment

                        • George S.
                          Senior Member
                          • Aug 2009
                          • 10116

                          i'll have a go,there is no slav language.The slav comes from a slav group of languages. C&M They would be macedonian.
                          From what i can see that link is about architects whats the relevance of it??NO explanation at all.
                          Last edited by George S.; 10-15-2011, 12:31 PM. Reason: edit
                          "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                          GOTSE DELCEV

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Originally posted by Julie
                            Slovak, I don't need that condescending history lesson thank YOU very much, professor
                            Julie, all of the content in his post is historically correct. Don't let others mislead you into thinking that the purpose and intent of this discussion is anything but valid.
                            Would you please critically corroborate the following question for clarification - Are Cyril and Methodius then Slavs or Macedonians ?
                            It was in response to the following from Pelister:
                            Originally posted by Pelister
                            I don't think the term 'Slav' should be used in relation to the Macedonians in any way, with perhaps one exception and that is in terms of how the Macedonians used it and defined it (if at all).
                            The english term 'Slavic' is a translation of the term which Cyril and Methodius pronounced as 'Slovjanski'. Of course they spoke a language which is clearly ancestral to the modern Macedonian language, but in terms of larger Indo-European linguistic families the Macedonians are 'Slavic' in the same way that the English are 'Germanic'. This is not an identity that either of them use unless in a historical linguistic context. The question, therefore, of whether Cyril and Methodius were Slavs or Macedonians was meant to have an obvious answer. In some contextual reference they are correctly called 'Slavs'. That doesn't take anything away from the fact that they were Macedonians and descended from the same people who are primarliy the ancestors of Macedonians today.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • George S.
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2009
                              • 10116

                              unless its of historical significance do you think it's wise to mention anything about us being slavs .I wpuld mention we are only macedonians & our language is macedonian.I wouldn't even bother mentioning that we are related to the slavs.This is 2011 we have to move on as macedonians.If we dwell in the past then the past will catch up with us & people will label us nothing but slavs not knowing the full story.
                              Also i would like to say the slavs went through,albania,greece(hellarse) bulgaria,& turkey,would they not have been in the same situation as macedonia or not.How would you consider them ?or were they immune from the effects from the slav invasion.??Would you not consider them as slavs?Why?
                              Last edited by George S.; 10-16-2011, 08:13 AM. Reason: ed
                              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                              GOTSE DELCEV

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Originally posted by George S. View Post
                                unless its of historical significance do you think it's wise not to mention anything about us being slavs .
                                It's not about being wise or hiding from the term 'Slav', it just isn't relevant in life as a Macedonian 99% of the time. We must always maintain the distinction between what it means to us and what our enemies want it to mean.
                                If we dwell in the past then the past will catch up with us & people will label us nothing but slavs not knowing the full story.
                                Nobody is dwelling in the past, but more Macedonians need to be informed about it. That way, we won't have people getting defensive when the term 'Slav' is mentioned, but instead they will be able to confidently explain its significance in terms of language and its insignificance for just about everything else where it concerns being a Macedonian.
                                Also i would like to say the slavs went through,albania,greece(hellarse) bulgaria,& turkey,would they not have been in the same situation as macedonia or not.How would you consider them ?or were they immune from the effects from the slav invasion.??Would you not consider them as slavs?Why?
                                Bulgarians are Slavic in a larger linguistic sense like Macedonians. On the other hand, while varying parts of the territory where Greece, Albania and Turkey are currently located were under the sway of invaders, they can't be Slavic today because Slavic languages haven't been spoken there for centuries - aside from the Macedonian parts in Greece and Albania, and the Thracian parts in Greece and Turkey.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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