Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

[makedonche]

The question was has he accepted a name change, of course he hasn't.

As for the rest of the questions he has really only done number 4.

Do I think that we should stop the negotiations? No, becuase I believe that that will only work against our cause. If ANY government accepts a name change it will likely cause a civil war. Why do you think we should not stop (which will probably be your next question)? Well, if we do stop then it will appear as if we are unreasonable and work against popular opinion regarding the issue. Eventually Greek efforts will all go to vain. As a country we already have 2/3 of the world behind us, which probably would not have happened had Macedonia not agreed to the negotiations. Has nobody here actually noticed?, the Macedonian government isnt interested in negotiating the identity and name. All they are interested in is appeasing Greece until we have gained enough diplomatic strength to win this fight. Everyone here speaks of these traitors and how bad all of these groups are for advocating the negotiations, but what people are forgetting is that the Macedonian government is trying to beat the Greeks at their own game. So far, they have generally done very good. People are way to quick of speaking about how this person is a traitor, predavnik etc. These words are used WAY WAY WAY to liberally. They should be reserved for people such as Ljubčo Georgievski who are ACTUALLY sell-outs, not just anyone who happens to disagree with your opionion. We will eventually prevail, this requires us to be diplomatic.



I know it wasn't directed at me, but this question has no answer.

Mastika
Thanks for your response!
Can you have a go at answering the other 3 questions please?

I have noticed what you mention/allude to here in your post regarding the negotiations and trying to do the best deal for ROM while keeping the greeks at bay. It reminded me of a movie with Demi Moore & Woody Harrelson where he lets his wife/fiancee sleep with Robert Redford for a million dollars - they got their money and lost their souls in the process! It reminds me of a situation a friend of mine was in recently - he asked a girl to sleep with him for $500-00 she said no way! So he asked her if she would sleep with him for $5,000-00 for 1 hour and she agreed to it! My friends response was this "So now that we have determined you are willing to prostitute yourself the only thing we have to negotiate is the price!"
There are some things that should just not be negotiated, my identity and the name of my country is one of them!

[Pelister]

I believe Gruevski has already betrayed us.

He stated in a press release last year that he had accepted Republic of Macedonia (Skopje), and that the Greeks had rejected it.

Thats a name change ! I wish people would see this in the cold hard light of day.

[Vangelovski]

Vangelovski, So you think that Grujo should just come out and tell everybody what is being discussed?? Why on earth would he do that?? That would be the biggest mistake, the UMD should be putting pressure on the Government not to change our name.

Prolet,

For starters, I think Gruevski should end the negotiations right now. Secondly, Gruevski is an elected official and bound by responsibilities such as accountability and transparency, particularly on issues of such importance. It does not mean he has the authority to negotiate our name in secret.

Secondly, I'm getting tired of the naive persona you put on, only to come out with Gligorovist/paternalist “trust us” statements like these. If you are incapable or immature enough to accept the responsibility of freedom, please refrain from exercising its benefits and do not attempt to deny the rest of us the privalege.

[Soldier of Macedon]

He stated in a press release last year that he had accepted Republic of Macedonia (Skopje)

Pelister, you're going to have to prove it mate. Come on, this has been repeated so many times, show me the press release, the link, show me where this statement was made.

[Bill77]

So you think that Grujo should just come out and tell everybody what is being discussed?? Why on earth would he do that??

Why, becouse its every Macedonian right to know, dont you think Prolet? obviously what is discussed with Greece, Greece's negotiators already know, so who is he hiding from, his own people? what has he to hide?

[julie]

Prolet, I am understanding why you are such a staunch supporter of the UMD with comments that the Maco president should keep his cards close to his chest.

Transparency and accountability should be paramount to anything within any organisation

[Mastika]

Prolet,

Secondly, Gruevski is an elected official and bound by responsibilities such as accountability and transparency, particularly on issues of such importance. It does not mean he has the authority to negotiate our name in secret.

Actually he does have the authority to do this as the head of the government. Could you imagine the media furor if the dialogue of EVERY discussion were to be heard? Not everything should be on the record, nor will it ever be. Any ACTUALITIES of course will released through the media, however discussion, dialogue and other mind-numbing niceties shouldn't be released because in the general scheme of things they are irrelevant. It is what actually happens that is the main thing. There is accountability, in the form of the democratic nature of Macedonia's political and judicial systems.

Does anybody here take this matter as serious, as say, Obama's private discussions with Kevin Rudd of the Canadian PM, for example? After all it is just diplomatic ramble, and only what eventuates as a result of it should be released.

[Phoenix]

Actually he does have the authority to do this as the head of the government. Could you imagine the media furor if the dialogue of EVERY discussion were to be heard? Not everything should be on the record, nor will it ever be. Any ACTUALITIES of course will released through the media, however discussion, dialogue and other mind-numbing niceties shouldn't be released because in the general scheme of things they are irrelevant. It is what actually happens that is the main thing. There is accountability, in the form of the democratic nature of Macedonia's political and judicial systems.

Does anybody here take this matter as serious, as say, Obama's private discussions with Kevin Rudd of the Canadian PM, for example? After all it is just diplomatic ramble, and only what eventuates as a result of it should be released.

Can we establish with any certainty whether an elected government official, in this case the PM can freely negotiate 'identity'...?

[julie]

Phoenix, I agree with the statement you are inferring, no one person should have autonomous power in a democratic organisation especially when it relates to identity, that then becomes a dictatorship. A democracy is one where the people vote for the party, the president or premier is one that is the voice of the people, as an elected representative in government.

[Mastika]

Can we establish with any certainty whether an elected government official, in this case the PM can freely negotiate 'identity'...?

Who is negotiating identity?! Why do people keep bringing this up. Our identity is not for negotiation, how many times must this be repeated, especially by figures such as the PM and other ministers etc. What the f***?! (excuse my swearing)

Yes, the PM has the authority to keep his conversations with foreign dignitaries private if he wishes. It is a negotiation. Should an agreement arise (in regards to anything not strictly the name), then the PM will be the one present it to the Macedonian parliament or people via referendum (depending on the change). In the end the people will have the final say in the negotiations (viva democracy!), I see the final say as being the most important. Possibly because I naturally prefer the result to be of greater importance then the means, whereas some people put more emphasis on the other way round.

[Phoenix]

Phoenix, I agree with the statement you are inferring, no one person should have autonomous power in a democratic organisation especially when it relates to identity, that then becomes a dictatorship. A democracy is one where the people vote for the party, the president or premier is one that is the voice of the people, as an elected representative in government.

Julie, I think it goes beyond the tangible functions of elected officials...identity is in the intangible realm of self consciousness, its not a quantifiable commodity that can be 'traded' on behalf of others in a commercial transaction which seems is essentially the process that we're following through this negotiation fiasco...

[Vangelovski]

Actually he does have the authority to do this as the head of the government. Could you imagine the media furor if the dialogue of EVERY discussion were to be heard? Not everything should be on the record, nor will it ever be. Any ACTUALITIES of course will released through the media, however discussion, dialogue and other mind-numbing niceties shouldn't be released because in the general scheme of things they are irrelevant. It is what actually happens that is the main thing. There is accountability, in the form of the democratic nature of Macedonia's political and judicial systems.

Does anybody here take this matter as serious, as say, Obama's private discussions with Kevin Rudd of the Canadian PM, for example? After all it is just diplomatic ramble, and only what eventuates as a result of it should be released.

Mastika,

Firstly, Gruevski does not have the authority to negotiate our name. Secondly, I'm not interested in his private conversations with his boyfriends, I'm interested in his position or "red line" on the name.

[Mastika]

Mastika,

Firstly, Gruevski does not have the authority to negotiate our name. Secondly, I'm not interested in his private conversations with his boyfriends, I'm interested in his position or "red line" on the name.

As the democratically elected representative of the Republic of Macedonia, yes he has the authority to enter these negotiations the same way that he would enter trade, military or other diplomatic negotiations on behalf of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, regardless whether or not they are about the name. He does not however have the authority to DECIDE on the name, that is up to the citizens of Macedonia to decide upon. He is there to try and get the best deal for his side to take back to his own people.

As for your second point, I am mistaken, i thought that you were alluding to the actual nature of discussions during the negotiations. I agree, explaining his so-called "red-line" would be a good thing, however it is his own prerogative to do so.

[Vangelovski]

As the democratically elected representative of the Republic of Macedonia, yes he has the authority to enter these negotiations the same way that he would enter trade, military or other diplomatic negotiations on behalf of the citizens of the Republic of Macedonia, regardless whether or not they are about the name. He does not however have the authority to DECIDE on the name, that is up to the citizens of Macedonia to decide upon. He is there to try and get the best deal for his side to take back to his own people.

As for your second point, I am mistaken, i thought that you were alluding to the actual nature of discussions during the negotiations. I agree, explaining his so-called "red-line" would be a good thing, however it is his own prerogative to do so.

Mastika,

It sounds like you attended the same politics 101 classes as Buktop. Gruevski has absolutely no authority (constitutional or otherwise) to negotiate the sovereignty of the Macedonian people.

[julie]

Mastika,

It sounds like you attended the same politics 101 classes as Buktop. Gruevski has absolutely no authority (constitutional or otherwise) to negotiate the sovereignty of the Macedonian people.

Thank BOGA for that, been waiting on eggshells for something to happen, he would not want to be seen as the traitor that finished off the Macedonians , that would be the icing on the cake for cultural and ethnic genocide.