United Macedonia Diaspora

[Soldier of Macedon]

Thanks for the advice Kire, and nice of you to presume that none of us have an idea of how the "political world" works. Do you support the policies of the UMD? Or are you just another Canadian who has been duped by some of these posers who are more interested in gaining favour with the Macedonian and American governments than they are in expressing the true sentiment of the Macedonian diaspora?

Do you support Macedonia's entry into NATO by the UN 'provisional reference' (FYROM)? The UMD do.

[vicsinad]

The problem is how Macedonia is recognized by the UN. How significant is what name Macedonia enters NATO under right now? That name will likely change dependent on if the Macedonian government succumbs to a 'compromise' with Greece, or it won't change at all if the Macedonian government fails to successfully advocate for its rights as an equal state, and the Macedonians as equal peoples, to other UN members and their peoples. The UN membership is the basis for how Macedonia interacts with and engages the international community and organizations.

I think an important question with relation to all organizations outside of the UN is whether or not, irregardless of what name Macedonia is accepted under, Macedonia will benefit from membership into that organization. The name battle will ultimately be won (with regards to international recognition of Macedonia) at the UN level. Should Macedonia refrain from participating in international organizations because of something that is, for the most part, dependent on Macedonia's ultimate efforts in the UN? If Macedonia can succeed there, most other references to our name as something other than Macedonia will vanish (aside from Greece's belligerence).

I think another question is that if Macedonia refuses to enter international organizations outside of the UN unless that organization respects Macedonia's rights, will that help Macedonia with eventually getting the UN to recognize Macedonia as Macedonia? On one hand, Macedonia is making tremendous progress with nations on an individual basis, which many of them are doing so based on Macedonia's international cooperation and activity, and this may play to Macedonia's advantage in the future if it forcefully advocates to be recognized as Macedonia in the UN. On the other hand, it may show that entering into institutions, like NATO, as FYROM shows that Macedonia is content with its UN reference as FYROM. However, this latter point could possibly become moot if Macedonia actually begins vigorously advocating for the UN to recognize Macedonia as Macedonia.

I think it's a tough question, but I think we shouldn't discredit a person or organization simply because they are willing to be accepted into NATO under Macedonia's UN recognized name (it's a different story, I think, if they agree with Macedonia's UN recognized name as FYROM). There's nothing the Macedonian people can do about what the Macedonian government did nearly 2-decades ago with regards to a UN compromise on the name...they only can demand the current Macedonian government works to change it. However, that's not saying anything else about the plenty of other concerns people have with UMD.

[KireMKD]

Thanks for the advice Kire, and nice of you to presume that none of us have an idea of how the "political world" works. Do you support the policies of the UMD? Or are you just another Canadian who has been duped by some of these posers who are more interested in gaining favour with the Macedonian and American governments than they are in expressing the true sentiment of the Macedonian diaspora?

Do you support Macedonia's entry into NATO by the UN 'provisional reference' (FYROM)? The UMD do.

No, I have never donated to them or supported them in any way but as a lobby group I don't mind them getting our side of the story to the politicians in Washington. How do you think the Albanians won support for the war in Kosovo.

Where did they support our entry into NATO by the UN 'provisional reference' (FYROM)? From what I understand, they used that against Greece because it breached the provisional 1995 deal under which they agreed not to block Macedonia's membership in international organizations if we used that name. Obviously, Greece blocked our entry into NATO even under the name FYROM because they know full well once we gain membership it will be over for them. If we have equal say there is no way anyone will listen to them. It is either this or to drop all talks with Greece, in which case they would win since they have all the power and support as a full NATO and EU members. I wish we would have never started the "name issue" talks and our government never accepted the temporary name "FYROM". What we should have done is like Armenia and Azerbaijan, cut diplomatic relations, then wait until we had enough UN votes to gain membership under our real name. But, guess what? Kiro, Ljupco, Branko and the rest of the people running the country at the time wanted to gain recognition as fast as possible so they accepted a temporary name and changed our flag.

[George S.]

KIre Mkd If the uMD is not promoting us as the republic of macedonia instead they are doing it by the interim name doesn't deserve our support as it's selling us short.Also the name isue is not really an issue at all when one considers that it is a ploy for greece used on macedonia not to be integrated into the eu or nato.The name issue is not an issue as greece would like macedonia simply not to exist as it's a thorn on it's side.As you pointed out once macedonia gets accepted in the eu they can do things agains't greece & greece knows that full well.
Why support the umd if it really doesn't represent us & our needs.They just use that to say that hey were doing something come & donate to our cause.
Also do you know that the umd supports the ventilator flag & also they aren't really open & transparent when questioned about things.Meto still hasn't answered RTG's questions about the umd still.

[KireMKD]

This was posted a few days ago on the website.

http://umdiaspora.org/content/view/652/1/

Koloski: Secretary Rice, a lot of respect to you. I am Meto Koloski with the United Macedonian Diaspora. I thank you for your leadership on NATO enlargement given your time as Secretary of State and prior to that as NSA (National Security Adviser). I do have a question regarding the Bucharest Summit, Macedonia was blocked from NATO membership and so were Georgia and Ukraine from MAP (Membership Action Plan). The upcoming NATO Summit is in Chicago. This is the first time a NATO Summit is being held in the United States outside of Washington, and it’s not an enlargement summit. Macedonia has faced a lot of obstacles, it has met all the requirements, and in December, the International Court of Justice agreed that Greece violated its treaty obligations by blocking Macedonia, and I wanted to know your perspective on Macedonia’s invitation, and then also where do you see the future of enlargement and the NATO Alliance.

Why was he asking about Ukraine and Georgia?! I don't see the point of including them when he should have put all the focus on Macedonia.

[Soldier of Macedon]

How significant is what name Macedonia enters NATO under right now?

Participating in such organisations by an artificial reference only demonstrates our acceptance to be manipulated by others.

I think an important question with relation to all organizations outside of the UN is whether or not, irregardless of what name Macedonia is accepted under, Macedonia will benefit from membership into that organization.

Are any of those potential 'benefits' more important than our identity?

The name battle will ultimately be won (with regards to international recognition of Macedonia) at the UN level.

Vic, any acceptance of the 'provisional reference' on our behalf would be like rubber stamping the right of others to unfairly dictate our own identity to us. Put two and two together. Gruevski and his lackeys are trying to enter Macedonia into NATO as FYROM while at the same time he is seeking a "mutually acceptable solution" with Greece. Where in that do you see a win?

No, I have never donated to them or supported them in any way but as a lobby group I don't mind them getting our side of the story to the politicians in Washington. How do you think the Albanians won support for the war in Kosovo.

Kire, Albanian lobby groups weren't compromising their identity when gaining support from US politicians. I don't mind any group promoting Macedonian interests, but I dislike groups who misrepresent the sentiment of the people they apparently 'represent'.

Where did they support our entry into NATO by the UN 'provisional reference' (FYROM)?

Read this:

http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3485

From what I understand, they used that against Greece because it breached the provisional 1995 deal under which they agreed not to block Macedonia's membership in international organizations if we used that name.

Take a look at the actual fact - the UMD are demonising Greece for not accepting us as FYROM (in NATO). The Macedonian government took Greece to the ICJ for the same reason. Dumb Macedonians. Greece rejecting Macedonia as FYROM, ironic as it is, actually did us a favour and helped us (and by 'us' I mean self-respecting Macedonians, wherever they are) save face.

Obviously, Greece blocked our entry into NATO even under the name FYROM because they know full well once we gain membership it will be over for them. If we have equal say there is no way anyone will listen to them.

We're in the UN and still don't have equal say, entering a military alliance like NATO as FYROM isn't going to change anything, in fact, we will go even further backwards. We will only have equal say when we start standing up for ourselves and our rights as a people.

It is either this or to drop all talks with Greece, in which case they would win since they have all the power and support as a full NATO and EU members.

Drop the talks with Greece and inform the UN that we are Macedonia and that is how we are to be recognised. What are we going to lose? Will Macedonia be bombed overnight? No. Will the whole world establish an embargo against her? No. At least the world will finally know where we stand and that we are not prepared to negotiate our identity.

.........cut diplomatic relations, then wait until we had enough UN votes to gain membership under our real name. But, guess what? Kiro, Ljupco, Branko and the rest of the people running the country at the time wanted to gain recognition as fast as possible so they accepted a temporary name and changed our flag.

You're forgetting Boris, Nikola, Ljube and Gjorgje who have done their bit to perpetuate former treachery and even create some of their own.

Why was he asking about Ukraine and Georgia?! I don't see the point of including them when he should have put all the focus on Macedonia.

Read this whole thread from the beginning when you have time, you will find many more questionable statements by members of the UMD and some of their supporters.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

You guys have to realize how the "political world" works. It is all about lobby groups like UMD getting in the ears of the politicians. The Greeks and especially Albanians have some of the best lobbyist (google Joe DioGuardi) in the US and to get things done you need such people.

Only, one problem SEVERAL times the UMD has strongly opposed the use of the term "lobby group" .. Not, a lobby group, don't act like any other NGO organization (pro government) .. sho ne kuro se i za koj?

NOTE

The, first good job offer that comes someways way he's out of dodge. DON'T LET THE DOOR HIT YOU COWBOY!

[vicsinad]

Soldier:

I don't know. Perhaps becoming a member of NATO may somehow make it easier to safeguard the Macedonian identity and get recognition for the name Macedonia. Or, as I stated, perhaps it will show that Macedonia is content with FYROM as its international title. I personally wouldn't recommend NATO for many other reasons not directly related to identity; but, I don't necessarily see being accepted into NATO under our UN name as jeopardizing our identity, I see being complacent with what our name is in the UN as what jeopardizes it. Going into NATO under FYROM is a consequence of UN, and I think that's where the fight should be applied, because once it's changed in the UN, it will (should) change in how international organizations refer to Macedonia, like NATO and the EU.

[Makedonska_Kafana]

Lui Temelkovski - Macedonia should go on the offensive - YouTube

[Soldier of Macedon]

I personally wouldn't recommend NATO for many other reasons not directly related to identity.......

What are the other reasons?

......I don't necessarily see being accepted into NATO under our UN name as jeopardizing our identity, I see being complacent with what our name is in the UN as what jeopardizes it.

Your suggesting we fix the root of the problem (UN) while at the sime time perpetuate the problem elsewhere (NATO). Understand that any sort of acceptance of the 'provisional reference' only demonstrates our willingness to compromise on our identity. It cannot be explained any simpler than that. Macedonians who support Macedonia's membership into organisations under any name other than (Republic of) Macedonia do not have integrity where it concerns this matter.

........once it's changed in the UN, it will (should) change in how international organizations refer to Macedonia, like NATO and the EU.

How exactly do you think the UN will recognise Macedonia as Macedonia, while all Macedonian governments since the mid 90's have been negotiating a "mutually acceptable solution" with Greece? Surely you can't be that naive that you can't see what is going on here. Macedonian governments have disgraced Macedonia both internally with the Framework Agreement and externally with the Interim Accord. Unless a drastic change of policy (or government) takes place, the modern Macedonian state is heading for another name change, and this time it will be permanent.

[George S.]

vicsand that is precisely the point the umd is off the track on macedonia for reasons only known to itself that it is not giving macedonia it's full undivided attention.We see allready chinks in the armour of an organization that's mean't to represent us but is really letting us down.

[vicsinad]

Soldier:

Other reasons include me not agreeing with the aggressive policies of NATO in Afghanistan, Libya and Serbia. Further, NATO serves not the interest of the people but of financial and corporate thugs who reap the benefits of those wars. It's a bully organization...I would rather see Macedonia not part of it.

I disagree with your characterization and generalizations of Macedonians who are willing to enter an organization/agreement with FYROM. It's like when the government gets your name wrong with your social security and/or birth certificate....every organization, agency, employer, and etc. will be using that wrong name in every single matter. No matter how much you shout and scream to an employer that your pay check should be addressed to "Macedonia" instead of "FYROM", you're legally named FYROM. Your employer may call you Macedonia casually, but officially it will always come back FYROM until you can change your name to Macedonia on that social security/birth certificate. So what to do -- not go to work, not file taxes, not buy goods, don't have bank accounts, don't own property...or continue doing all those "beneficial" things to support you as a person while doing getting your name changed where it matters? Do you lose integrity as a person by officially going under the name you don't want, but that is legally yours, so you can make a living and survive...or at least advance yourself?

Sure, not the best analogy, but it gets the point across I think: UN is pretty much the body that represents admission into the international legal world. Macedonia, although bullied into it, accepted FYROM as its name for the UN...and that trickles down to every other international organization where the members are UN members, where international law under the UN and its branches applies.

There are two different strategies that I think Macedonia could realistically take to achieve the above, and I don't know which one is better: A) drop anything to do with every international organization and agreement that uses the term 'FYROM' and use that to assert our name and identity; or B) concentrate all "name and identity" matters at the UN and continue seeking benefits (economic, environmental, political, etc.) that Macedonia may receive from interacting with those organizations and agreements where FYROM is used.

The Macedonian government the past 15 or so years has been using FYROM for all these international activities without vigorously concentrating "name and identity" matters at the UN...of course, a doomed policy. That's not something I agree with.

[Vangelovski]

Victor,

Accepting admission into NATO as FYROM only puts another nail into the coffin. What would help is entering NATO as Macedonia.

The UN is not some sort of overarching world government in which a state must be a member, nor can "international law" trump national laws and national sovereignty by virtue of the UN's own Charter and the simple fact that the UN is an unelected body. The UN is just another multilateral organisation. Read its Charter. The problem with Macedonia's name lies in Macedonia, with the Macedonian people and their unwillingness (and in some cases just plain ignorance) to EXERCISE their inalienable rights.

In terms of the UN name being used in other organisations, the UN is not affiliated with NATO and there is absolutely no provision within either charter that anything the UN decides on must be accepted by NATO.

I thought you were a law student? Does Meto take legal advice from people like yourself? Have you ever provided Meto with any legal advice? If only Petar hired lawyers like you, we would have solved that problem before it even started!

[Vangelovski]

Kire,

Please tell us more about the "political world" and how it works.

[vicsinad]

Victor,

Accepting admission into NATO as FYROM only puts another nail into the coffin. What would help is entering NATO as Macedonia.

The UN is not some sort of overarching world government in which a state must be a member, nor can "international law" trump national laws and national sovereignty by virtue of the UN's own Charter and the simple fact that the UN is an unelected body. The UN is just another multilateral organisation. Read its Charter. The problem with Macedonia's name lies in Macedonia, with the Macedonian people and their unwillingness (and in some cases just plain ignorance) to EXERCISE their inalienable rights.

In terms of the UN name being used in other organisations, the UN is not affiliated with NATO and there is absolutely no provision within either charter that anything the UN decides on must be accepted by NATO.

I thought you were a law student? Does Meto take legal advice from people like yourself? Have you ever provided Meto with any legal advice? If only Petar hired lawyers like you, we would have solved that problem before it even started!

I've probably read the UN Charter more times than you mention Meto's name in any given month. I guess that means I'm as obsessed with the Charter as you are with Meto. Eh, we all have our fantasies...

Aside from that, I never suggested any that of which you may have suggested that I probably suggested. But way to find a convenient opportunity to stroke your ego and boast about some basic knowledge of the UN. You have shown with your words that your "understanding" of what the UN does and its practical effects on states and the way states interact with each other is...well...undergraduate. Do they even have that word "undergraduate" where you come from?

I wonder how quickly a picture of Meto makes you go 6 to midnight...now that would be an interesting topic for a thesis.

Time for some soul searching, don't ya think?