NATIONALISM AND THE MIDDLE AGES: The Myth of Creation of Slavic-Bulgarian Nation...

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  • Petros Houhoulis
    Banned
    • Sep 2008
    • 55

    #16
    Originally posted by Risto the Great View Post
    Honestly, I have no idea.
    Therefore the article has made some assumptions that defy comprehension by most of its readers. It might mean something to Greeks? But exploring that silly notion might help us learn to understand the modern Greek mentality. Perhaps you can have a go at telling us what you think it means.
    I really managed to confuse you eh? Why does this Greek post an article aimed at the Bulgarians? There must be something in it for him, no doubt! But what?

    Let's start giving a better shape to that confusion:

    The article is more or less correct. The most frequent objection to it is the usage of the term Slav and Slavic ethnic group. Sooner or later some of you shall be offended by the term "Old church Slavonic" as well, but - alas! This is what the original sources mention. Czar Samuel was never mentioned in any of the contemporary sources as Macedonian. His opponent Basil was a member of the Macedonian dynasty of the East Roman Empire (Byzantium).

    But then, even if you had any doubts, why don't you ask Misirkov to tell you what happened?



    "If the formation of the South Slav peoples was a mechanical and political process it would not be impossible that it might recur in present times. Within the South Slav language complex there are several branches outside the Serbian and Bulgarian political units; these are the Macedonian dialects. These branches, since they are closely allied, naturally have some connection linking them more closely with Bulgarian in the east and Serbian in the north. These branches have been given various names at various times but it was not until the last quarter of the nineteenth century that these names overlapped so much as to displace one another. These various names did not properly catch on, and gradually they began to give way until finally they were replaced by the natural description Slav" with a "Macedonian" reflection from the geographical area in which they were distributed. The people who spoke these dialects had once been called "Slavs" and later either "Serbs" or "Bulgarians" until the rivalry between these two names made them both alien to the Macedonian Slavs, who started calling themselves after the old geographical name of their country. The name Macedonian was first used by the Macedonian Slavs as a geographical term to indicate their origin. This name is well known to the Macedonian Slavs and all of them use it to describe themselves. Since the formation of nationalities is a political and mechanical process, all the necessary conditions exist for Macedonia to break off as an independent ethnographic region. The Macedonians have a common country which is gradually, with the reforms, breaking off into an independent political whole in which there are "several branches of the South Slav chain of languages": these branches can easily be united through a general recognition of the central one as the means of expression of the literary language of all intelligent people in Macedonia and as the language of books and schools. Thus all the conditions for the national revival of the Macedonians are clearly visible, and, even from the point of view of the other historical theory (concerning the formation of small ethnographic units from a larger unit on the Balkan Peninsula), this is completely logical.

    Here is what one might say to those who claim that Macedonian as a nationality has never existed: it may not have existed in the past, but it exists today and will exist in the future."

    So, ladies and gentlemen, don't fool yourselves. The references "Slavs", Slavic ethnos" and "Old Church Slavonic" are perfectly normal, Misirkov acknowledges them, and they reflected the truth until the beginning of the era of nationalism, after the French revolution. Then the South Slavs begun splitting into pieces, some of them based upon countries of the past with the same names - or rather all of them!

    So, is there anything else that you find to be unusual or wrong? I'd be happy to discuss it with you...

    Comment

    • Daskalot
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 4345

      #17
      Petros why is there a version 4 of you?
      Macedonian Truth Organisation

      Comment

      • Jankovska
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 1774

        #18
        Slavic is not an ethnic group, I don;t understand why everyone confuses this?

        Comment

        • Petros Houhoulis
          Banned
          • Sep 2008
          • 55

          #19
          Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
          Petros why is there a version 4 of you?
          Well, I couldn't log in with the original version and when I asked for a reset of my password to be sent at [email protected], I didn't receive it (twice). Thus, I made a new yahoo I.D. The ID's Sikader2 and Sikader3 were occupied... I used the name Sikader4 and thus... Petros Houhoulis 4!!!

          Weird, isn't it?

          Comment

          • fatso
            Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 301

            #20
            Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
            Not stupid at all, Albanians are plentiful in Greece, particularly in the south, they are well represented in numbers. The streets of Athens are full of them, a friend of mine came back from Greece 3 days ago and informed me of this fact also.

            Greeks would like to pretend on internet forums that this is not the case, but they all know it to be true. There will be no 'operation broom-sweep' this time (In reference to the mass expulsion of Albanians in Greece a few years back). Your buddies are there to stay.

            True, but they are still guest workers with zero rights.

            Comment

            • Petros Houhoulis
              Banned
              • Sep 2008
              • 55

              #21
              Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
              Slavic is not an ethnic group, I don;t understand why everyone confuses this?
              Technically it isn't, but before the era of nationalism there was a mass of South Slavs without an ethnic identity. This is what Misirkov says, I think.

              Still, since it is impossible to speak of a Macedonian ethnic identity in the Middle ages, when there was a Bulgarian proto-ethnic identity, and if you try to differentiate between the two, you are forced to speak of ethnic Slavs, as if they had an ethnic conscience (while the sources speak of many different tribal identities - Berziti, Dragouviti e.t.c.)

              Comment

              • Jankovska
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 1774

                #22
                Originally posted by fatso View Post
                True, but they are still guest workers with zero rights.
                Oh if you look at what they have done, trust me they know how to get their rights. This is not the Macedonians who are always peaceful.

                Comment

                • Jankovska
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 1774

                  #23
                  Originally posted by Petros Houhoulis 4 View Post
                  Technically it isn't, but before the era of nationalism there was a mass of South Slavs without an ethnic identity. This is what Misirkov says, I think.

                  Still, since it is impossible to speak of a Macedonian ethnic identity in the Middle ages, when there was a Bulgarian proto-ethnic identity, and if you try to differentiate between the two, you are forced to speak of ethnic Slavs, as if they had an ethnic conscience (while the sources speak of many different tribal identities - Berziti, Dragouviti e.t.c.)

                  The mass of Southern Slavs? No Macedonian identity? What history do you read, honestly?

                  Comment

                  • Daskalot
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 4345

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Petros Houhoulis 4 View Post
                    Well, I couldn't log in with the original version and when I asked for a reset of my password to be sent at [email protected], I didn't receive it (twice). Thus, I made a new yahoo I.D. The ID's Sikader2 and Sikader3 were occupied... I used the name Sikader4 and thus... Petros Houhoulis 4!!!

                    Weird, isn't it?
                    would you like us to delete your other account, or try and reopen it to you and delete this one?
                    Macedonian Truth Organisation

                    Comment

                    • Petros Houhoulis
                      Banned
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 55

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
                      The mass of Southern Slavs? No Macedonian identity? What history do you read, honestly?
                      Stojko Stojkov and Misirkov, especially this Misirkov quote, that I have posted above before too:



                      "If the formation of the South Slav peoples was a mechanical and political process it would not be impossible that it might recur in present times. Within the South Slav language complex there are several branches outside the Serbian and Bulgarian political units; these are the Macedonian dialects. These branches, since they are closely allied, naturally have some connection linking them more closely with Bulgarian in the east and Serbian in the north. These branches have been given various names at various times but it was not until the last quarter of the nineteenth century that these names overlapped so much as to displace one another. These various names did not properly catch on, and gradually they began to give way until finally they were replaced by the natural description Slav" with a "Macedonian" reflection from the geographical area in which they were distributed. The people who spoke these dialects had once been called "Slavs" and later either "Serbs" or "Bulgarians" until the rivalry between these two names made them both alien to the Macedonian Slavs, who started calling themselves after the old geographical name of their country. The name Macedonian was first used by the Macedonian Slavs as a geographical term to indicate their origin. This name is well known to the Macedonian Slavs and all of them use it to describe themselves. Since the formation of nationalities is a political and mechanical process, all the necessary conditions exist for Macedonia to break off as an independent ethnographic region. The Macedonians have a common country which is gradually, with the reforms, breaking off into an independent political whole in which there are "several branches of the South Slav chain of languages": these branches can easily be united through a general recognition of the central one as the means of expression of the literary language of all intelligent people in Macedonia and as the language of books and schools. Thus all the conditions for the national revival of the Macedonians are clearly visible, and, even from the point of view of the other historical theory (concerning the formation of small ethnographic units from a larger unit on the Balkan Peninsula), this is completely logical.

                      Here is what one might say to those who claim that Macedonian as a nationality has never existed: it may not have existed in the past, but it exists today and will exist in the future."

                      It is evident that Misirkov recognized that at the beginning there were Slavs, who broke off into Bulgarians and Serbs, those two begun quarreling and thus forced those between them to create an all new identity, and the name Macedonian. Misirkov though points out that this ethnogenesis process was still unfolding at his time: "...it may not have existed in the past, but it exists today and will exist in the future."

                      Comment

                      • Petros Houhoulis
                        Banned
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 55

                        #26
                        Originally posted by Daskalot View Post
                        would you like us to delete your other account, or try and reopen it to you and delete this one?
                        Whatever. I don't like to have two accounts either.

                        Comment

                        • Daskalot
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 4345

                          #27
                          Originally posted by Petros Houhoulis 4 View Post
                          Whatever. I don't like to have two accounts either.
                          I will merge your 2 accounts
                          Macedonian Truth Organisation

                          Comment

                          • Jankovska
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1774

                            #28
                            Do you support the theory that Slavs moved on the Balkans?

                            Comment

                            • Petros Houhoulis
                              Banned
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 55

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Jankovska View Post
                              Do you support the theory that Slavs moved on the Balkans?
                              Do you support the theory that the Slavs did not move into Macedonia?

                              (And Thessaly, and the Peloponesse, and the Aegean islands...)

                              Comment

                              • Jankovska
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 1774

                                #30
                                Originally posted by Petros Houhoulis View Post
                                Do you support the theory that the Slavs did not move into Macedonia?

                                (And Thessaly, and the Peloponesse, and the Aegean islands...)
                                Of course I do, because Slavic tribes never existed. Slavic is not an ethnic group, it;s a linguistic group. Macedonians have lived on that territory way before this rubbish about Slavic tribes came out. Macedonians have lived there since the beginning. Macedonians were there and you all very well know that.
                                There is NO archaeological prove that such Slavic tribes ever existed.
                                Who were the Slavic tribes? Where did they come from? Where are the facts to support this theory? Facts?

                                Comment

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