United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • TrueMacedonian
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2009
    • 3810

    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
    Dzog,

    Have you read all of Meto's other statements? Many of them have been posted on here and maknews (where they have been deleted).

    I'm not sure why you involve yourself in a Macedonian forum which is largely based on the discussion of Macedonian politics and includes significant discussions on Macedonian diaspora politics if a) you don't believe the diaspora has an real impact on Macedonia and b) you're sick and tired of the 'divisions' within the diaspora?
    I think you need to read why dzog stated what he stated again. Obviously he is interested in Macedonia and the Macedonians if he started this topic.
    Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
      I think you need to read why dzog stated what he stated again. Obviously he is interested in Macedonia and the Macedonians if he started this topic.
      I think Dzog would prefer to speak for himself - he's much too intelligent to allow you to do it for him.
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        Originally posted by Dzog View Post
        However, in my eyes, scrutiny is a careful observation of faults with appropriate suggestions for reform (namely by those parties affected by these faults).
        Dzog, to suggest such a thing hasn't happened, suggests that you are new to the scene. For example, criticism of UMD started nearly two years ago (publically), at which time UMD was told in no uncertain terms what people believed it was doing wrong, HOW it could change and WHY it should change. UMD completely ignored all of that and continued on its merry way of supporting the Interim Accord and Framework Agreement. It is now beyond redemption (in my view) and needs to be treated as an organisation that is not supportive of Macedonian sovereingty.
        Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-18-2010, 10:34 PM.
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • TrueMacedonian
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2009
          • 3810

          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
          I think Dzog would prefer to speak for himself - he's much too intelligent to allow you to do it for him.
          Vangelovski what about the entire text of what Meto stated. Does it not change the landscape of yours and Pelister's claim? I definitely think it does.
          Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

          Comment

          • Vangelovski
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 8531

            Originally posted by TrueMacedonian View Post
            Vangelovski what about the entire text of what Meto stated. Does it not change the landscape of yours and Pelister's claim? I definitely think it does.
            Meto can make all sorts of claims - in fact he does (in the same breath he'll say that he's against a compromise AND he'll speculate on "acceptable" names).

            At the end of the day the 'proof is in the pudding' - UMD supports the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. Read them. Understand them. Think about what they mean for Macedonia.
            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

            Comment

            • Dzog
              Junior Member
              • Sep 2009
              • 37

              Vangelovski,

              I have read Meto's other statements but they did not interest me enough to warrant much attention.

              I get involved in these forums because I want to voice my own opinion on issues that affect the Macedonian diaspora and not to protect or attack the ideals of an organisation that purports to represent the Macedonian diaspora. I take a greater interest in real issues as opposed to the politics of the UMD and other organisations but decided to post this as the arguments between UMD and non/ex-UMD members are becoming ridiculous and embarassing.

              I did not say the Macedonian diaspora does not have a real impact on the politics of the Republic - I said the UMD (and other organisations like it) does not and, as such, should not receive the attention it is getting with regards to its political statements.

              I am not calling for unity, but am calling for independent thinking without the strictures of organisations run by and opposed by individuals who obviously have their own agendas. I think Macedonians around the world would be much better off if they decided to think for themselves rather than to affiliate with such organisations and be told what to think. In any case, you guys seem to have a history of personal differences which you cannot reconcile. If this kind of division is productive then I must be missing something.


              Admittedly, I am "new to the scene" and do not know anything about the UMD but, as I have reiterated, I hardly care. What I do care about is the bullshit that is emanating around it as it stops other Macedonians from taking an interest in Macedonian issues and participating in the Macedonian community.
              Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

              Comment

              • Vangelovski
                Senior Member
                • Sep 2008
                • 8531

                Originally posted by Dzog View Post
                Vangelovski,

                I have read Meto's other statements but they did not interest me enough to warrant much attention.

                I get involved in these forums because I want to voice my own opinion on issues that affect the Macedonian diaspora and not to protect or attack the ideals of an organisation that purports to represent the Macedonian diaspora. I take a greater interest in real issues as opposed to the politics of the UMD and other organisations but decided to post this as the arguments between UMD and non/ex-UMD members are becoming ridiculous and embarassing.

                I did not say the Macedonian diaspora does not have a real impact on the politics of the Republic - I said the UMD (and other organisations like it) does not and, as such, should not receive the attention it is getting with regards to its political statements.

                I am not calling for unity, but am calling for independent thinking without the strictures of organisations run by and opposed by individuals who obviously have their own agendas. I think Macedonians around the world would be much better off if they decided to think for themselves rather than to affiliate with such organisations and be told what to think. In any case, you guys seem to have a history of personal differences which you cannot reconcile. If this kind of division is productive then I must be missing something.


                Admittedly, I am "new to the scene" and do not know anything about the UMD but, as I have reiterated, I hardly care. What I do care about is the bullshit that is emanating around it as it stops other Macedonians from taking an interest in Macedonian issues and participating in the Macedonian community.
                Dzog,

                What, in your view, are the key 'Macedonian' issues?

                I understand everyone has specific interests and I agree that many, for example, who have a greater interest in 'cultural' issues are put off by some of the 'political' issues and the debates (which can get ugly at times) that surround them.

                However, it is my view, that many of the political issues cannot be ignored and need to be openly debated within the community - which is a natural and desirable practice in any open and democratic society whether at the local, national or international level. Having said this, those that do not have the inclination, do not need to be involved. However, they should not suppress those that do have an interest in these issues to openly express their views.

                I agree, that everyone should do their own independent research and thinking, however, as you can see, most people don't - they usually just parrot what their HQ tells them to or blurt out (and then obsessively defend) uninformed garbage. But you need to take the good with the bad in an open society.
                If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  Dzog, I think organisations can be much more influential than individuals. What is the point in having independent thinking if it cannot extend into action?
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                  Comment

                  • Dzog
                    Junior Member
                    • Sep 2009
                    • 37

                    Vangelovski,

                    I agree, but there is no political issues being discussed here - all that is being talked about is what the UMD has said and its internal politics rather than the politics of the Republic of Macedonia. There has been no intelligent discussion, with any such conversation being shut down. For example, we had to revert to private messaging on our excellent discussion regarding the Macedonian Constitution because the MakNews forum operators deleted the thread.

                    My point is that in all forms of Macedonia engagement - from the Macedonian family in Australia talking about Macedonian issues, to these forums and even to the Parliament itself - productive discussion and action is being stifled by one's associations and personal vendettas and, frankly, it is the most destructive element to Macedonians throughout the world.


                    Risto,

                    It is a good point you make, but these organisations are only influential (in a positive sense) if the board members can put aside their personal agendas and aspirations in favour of the organisation's ambitions.
                    Last edited by Dzog; 01-18-2010, 11:29 PM.
                    Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

                    Comment

                    • Vangelovski
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 8531

                      I disagree that no political issue is been discussed in relation to UMD. In fact, I think one of the most cirtical issues is been discussed and that is of two opposing visions for Macedonia. UMD has taken the brunt of it because it promotes itself as a voice for the diaspora and supports one of those two visions. Unfortunately for them, a vast majority of the diaspora (particularly in Australia) vehemently oppose the 'UMD' vision and support the opposing vision for Macedonia. Look a little deeper into the whole 'UMD' issue and beyond the garbage, and you'll find that this issue (not UMD) is one of the most critical of all for Macedonia.

                      As for "vendettas", like I said, you have to take the good with the bad in an open and democratic society.

                      PS. I've been meaning to respond to you re our discussion on the constitution and will do so shortly - I'm still researching something in relation to it.
                      Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-18-2010, 11:32 PM.
                      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                      Comment

                      • blackcactus
                        Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 242

                        Originally posted by Dzog View Post
                        I have had enough of the divisiveness within the Macedonian diaspora. Disputes between UMD and other parties, disputes between churches, disputes between internet forums - it is absolute bullshit and the primary reason why I steer clear from affiliation of any kind. All I see is people pushing their own agendas veiled by a seemingly genuine concern for Macedonian issues. Rather than blindly following one organisation, one party or one forum, open your mind, do some independent reading and end the stupidity .
                        Thank you, it needed to be said

                        I respect peoples conviction but it does look like we have been cannibalizing each other and our cause

                        It saddens me to see Macedonians fighting each other

                        If all you do is harshly criticize without giving back in a positive constructive way, you are part of the problem
                        Last edited by blackcactus; 01-18-2010, 11:36 PM.
                        The one who tells the story rules the World - Hopi proverb

                        “Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only meant that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark” - Monty Python

                        Comment

                        • Dzog
                          Junior Member
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 37

                          Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                          I disagree that no political issue is been discussed in relation to UMD. In fact, I think one of the most cirtical issues is been discussed and that is of two opposing visions for Macedonia. UMD has taken the brunt of it because it promotes itself as a voice for the diaspora and supports one of those two visions. Unfortunately for them, a vast majority of the diaspora (particularly in Australia) vehemently oppose the 'UMD' vision and support the opposing vision for Macedonia. Look a little deeper into the whole 'UMD' issue and beyond the garbage, and you'll find that this issue (not UMD) is one of the most critical of all for Macedonia.

                          As for "vendettas", like I said, you have to take the good with the bad in an open and democratic society.

                          PS. I've been meaning to respond to you re our discussion on the constitution and will do so shortly - I'm still researching something in relation to it.

                          That is exactly what I want others to realise too.
                          Vi Veri Veniversum Vivus Vici

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            Originally posted by Dzog View Post
                            That is exactly what I want others to realise too.
                            Seeing as we're in agreement, logic brings us to the final question (rhetorical) - which vision for Macedonia do you support, how will you promote that vision and how will you react to those who consistently push an agenda that is in direct opposition to your vision, while purporting that they are actually in agreement with your vision?
                            Last edited by Vangelovski; 01-19-2010, 12:04 AM.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • Risto the Great
                              Senior Member
                              • Sep 2008
                              • 15658

                              Originally posted by Dzog
                              Risto,

                              It is a good point you make, but these organisations are only influential (in a positive sense) if the board members can put aside their personal agendas and aspirations in favour of the organisation's ambitions.
                              Agreed. So once you have determined and agreed to an organisation's ambitions, you can put these ambitions ahead of personal agendas and aspirations.

                              I asked the UMD in an email if it would embrace the Macedonian Cause as defined in this forum. The UMD replied to my email in the following fashion:

                              We thank you for your e-mail and the opportunity to inform you about our mission and policy. UMD President Metodija A. Koloski has made me aware he has tried to contact you regarding this matter. He will be in Australia for the entire month of February to meet with the Macedonian community.

                              The United Macedonian Diaspora addresses the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world.

                              As made public on UMD's website and through countless public appearances, media statements, and written documents, UMD's main goals are to foster unity among Macedonian people, and advance their cause. We work to promote our historical, spiritual and cultural heritage while advancing the Macedonian tradition within the framework of various advocacy, educational, and charitable programs.

                              Our objectives include, but are not limited to, safeguarding the rights of Macedonians around the world; strengthening unity among the Macedonian Diaspora; acting with and on behalf of Macedonian communities before governmental and international bodies; cooperating with the international community, promoting the universal ideas of peace, freedom, self-determination, and equality.

                              UMD takes seriously its mission. Per UMD’s mission, UMD has rigorously defended Macedonian interests through various media, including educational advocacy of elected officials, charitable efforts, and socio-cultural events. UMD’s stance on the recognition and support of the constitutional and ancestral name is unequivocal. For issues of clarity, UMD categorically rejects any and all changes imposed or otherwise, and will always refer to the Republic of Macedonia, Macedonians, and the Macedonian language as such.

                              Additionally, UMD, through its actions has raised awareness and advocated for the resolution of all human rights issues facing Macedonians in the Balkans and around the world.
                              The text above looks great. And would sit quite well if there was no inconsistency coming from the leader.

                              It wants to advance all Macedonian people's causes and addresses the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world. This is great stuff!

                              But unfortunately there is doubt about the UMD's ambitions.
                              We think the Macedonian Cause is a great way to bind organisations into an acceptable way of thinking.
                              Risto the Great
                              MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                              "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                              Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                              Comment

                              • Soldier of Macedon
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 13670

                                Originally posted by Buktop
                                My opinion about joining under the temporary name into the EU and NATO would be just that, temporary, until a sufficient number of countries had recognized Macedonia and we could comfortably overthrow the ruling at the UN.
                                Buktop, changing from one temporary name (current acronym) to another ('democratic') and then, another one, again? What are we, a banana state? Do you really think after changing names multiple times for international organisations, the final 'acceptable' compromise will be (Republic of) Macedonia?

                                I think you're smarter than that, but because the lines have been drawn you feel the need to defend Meto's viewpoint.
                                In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                                Comment

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