Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue

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  • aleksandrov
    Member
    • Feb 2010
    • 558

    Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
    I know what I read and I am not confused, the article that Volk posted seems to be though. Since when is Gruevski pushing for North Macedonia as an international name and Republic of Macedonia as one for bilateral use? If the opposite was written then it probably would reflect the current situation, but as it isn't, I can only put it down to another pathetic news article by Dnevnik, customarily riddled with lies.

    Don't rely on the diagram. Read the full article.

    The article actually says that the Macedonian government is pushing for "North Republic of Macedonia" or "Republic of Macedonia - North" or "Republic of Macedonia (North)" for use within INTERNATIONAL organizations and forums, while insisting that the name Republic of Macedonia should remain on the passports and that individual countries can CHOOSE to use it in their bilateral relations with us. That's in line with the sell that we would be replacing the current FYROM reference (for the UN, NATO and EU) with a name that only adds a geographic qualifier to Republic of Macedonia, while keeping the 'constitutional' name for internal use and for bilateral relations with countries who have already recognized us as Republic of Macedonia. The Government has been flirting with that concept for a long time. It went into NATO's Bucharest Summit with it, except that the proposed 'international' name at that stage was Republic of Macedonia - Skopje. The UMD also flirted with the concept publicly before the Bucharest Summit, except that they suggested "something like Democratic Republic of Macedonia" for use within international organizations.

    I don't see why the prospect of the Macedonian Government accepting what the article suggests is any more detrimental than the fact that it already accepts an "Interim Accord" and "name negotiations" that give a hostile foreign nation the right to participate in the determination of the identity of our state, and thereby severely undermine the sovereignty and human rights of its citizens.

    This passage should clear the confusion created by the diagram in relation to "bilateral" versus "international" use:

    Дури и последната модификација од јули 2009 година (во билатерала да може земјите да избираат кое име ќе го употребуваат независно од препораката) треба да се чита како обид компромисот да се најде во тоа што некои земји поважни за Грција ќе ја прифатат сугестијата, а Атина нема да се бори со Скопје за секоја членка на ОН што го признава нашето уставно име. Тоа е едно и од инсистирањата на македонската страна во преговорите. Новото име (на англиски и француски), со уставното испишано на кирилица, би стоело и на пасошите, како и на другите лични документи што се користат во меѓународна комуникација.

    На тој начин, уставното име би останало за домашна употреба и за земјите што би решиле да продолжат да ни се обраќаат со тоа име, но исклучиво во билатералните односи.
    Last edited by aleksandrov; 03-23-2010, 08:41 AM.
    All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident. Arthur Schopenhauer

    https://www.facebook.com/igor.a.aleksandrov?ref=tn_tnmn

    Comment

    • Vangelovski
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 8531

      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Tom, Spolaj Ti (lol, sorry mate, couldn't help it).

      On a serious note, no, I don't know if Gruevski will capitulate, the bilateral compromise is capitulation enough, like RtG I have thought about this over and over and have concluded that we shouldn't have to compromise a thing, not even on a bilateral level.

      Can you say with certainty that he will capitulate? I know that people have claimed that Gruevski was prepared to accept Macedonia (Skopje) in Bucharest, but I am yet to see evidence of this.
      My proof is in what Aleksandrov just pointed out - Gruevski has already capitulated by accepting the Interim Accord. We criticise UMD for exactly the same - I think DPMNE needs the same treatment. Meto, for example, only came to the conclusion that "Democratic Republic of Macedonia" would be "acceptable" because he first accepted the Interim Accord as "legitimate" and, therefore, accepted that Greece's problem with our name/identity as a "legitimate" grievance which in turn needs a "legitimate" solution. Gruevski is only one step behind our "enlightened" Wiz Kid.
      Last edited by Vangelovski; 03-23-2010, 06:12 PM.
      If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

      The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        Originally posted by Aleksandrov
        The article actually says that the Macedonian government is pushing for "North Republic of Macedonia" or "Republic of Macedonia - North" or "Republic of Macedonia (North)" for use within INTERNATIONAL organizations and forums, while insisting that the name Republic of Macedonia should remain on the passports and that individual countries can CHOOSE to use it in their bilateral relations with us. That's in line with the sell that we would be replacing the current FYROM reference (for the UN, NATO and EU) with a name that only adds a geographic qualifier to Republic of Macedonia, while keeping the 'constitutional' name for internal use and for bilateral relations with countries who have already recognized us as Republic of Macedonia.
        But that is not in line with the statements made by Gruevski and Ivanov, who have made it clear that only a bilateral solution with Greece is acceptable. The Dnevnik article is typically in the Dnevnik 'style', uncorroborated statements and creative journalism at its worst.
        Originally posted by Vangelovski
        My proof is in what Aleksandrov just pointed out - Gruevski has already capitulated by accepting the Interim Accord. We criticise UMD for exactly the same - I think DPMNE needs the same treatment.
        Tom, the Interim Accord was accepted by the Macedonian government prior to Gruevski's time, the latter adopted the status quo when he took office. This in itself is acceptance and I am not making excuses for him, but there is a difference. The UMD have taken a few steps further and advocated for three names at one stage (international, bilateral, and keeping the actual name for all other uses), and Meto still finds the 'democratic' prefix acceptable, the same prefix he backed for international use. While there is more than enough proof that demonstrates Meto's sentiments, I am yet to find any information relating to Gruevski's acceptance of anything other than a bilateral name with Greece.

        Do either of you guys have anything to corroborate the suggestion that Gruevski was ready to accept Macedonia (Skopje) at Bucharest, and for what purpose (bilateral, international, etc)?
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • Vangelovski
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 8531

          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          But that is not in line with the statements made by Gruevski and Ivanov, who have made it clear that only a bilateral solution with Greece is acceptable. The Dnevnik article is typically in the Dnevnik 'style', uncorroborated statements and creative journalism at its worst.

          Tom, the Interim Accord was accepted by the Macedonian government prior to Gruevski's time, the latter adopted the status quo when he took office. This in itself is acceptance and I am not making excuses for him, but there is a difference. The UMD have taken a few steps further and advocated for three names at one stage (international, bilateral, and keeping the actual name for all other uses), and Meto still finds the 'democratic' prefix acceptable, the same prefix he backed for international use. While there is more than enough proof that demonstrates Meto's sentiments, I am yet to find any information relating to Gruevski's acceptance of anything other than a bilateral name with Greece.

          Do either of you guys have anything to corroborate the suggestion that Gruevski was ready to accept Macedonia (Skopje) at Bucharest, and for what purpose (bilateral, international, etc)?

          Spolaj ti SoM

          Gruevski’s exact position on the name issue is unclear – he speaks of a ‘red line’ that we all supposedly know, yet he’s never made any public statement as to what that ‘red line’ actually is. He has supported the idea of a different name for bilateral use with Greece and has never denied reports that he is willing to accept the use of a different name for international organisations as long as countries that have recognised our name are allowed to continue to do so bilaterally. His silence is just as abhorrent as Meto’s public speculation on specific names.

          That aside, Gruevski has accepted every capitulation to date as “reality”. Some of these capitulations (allowing a foreign government to dictate the terms of the Macedonian constitution, accepting the legitimacy of an agreement, reached with an extremist group, which is designed to dismantle the Macedonian state and perpetuating the moral and intellectual decay of Macedonian society by maintaining that we cannot survive without a big brother) are, in my view, just as detrimental as Gruevski accepting a name change. Each of these issues on their own are capable of bringing about a long and painful end for the self-governance of the Macedonian people (though one could argue that we have already lost the ability to govern ourselves).
          Last edited by Vangelovski; 03-23-2010, 08:21 PM.
          If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

          The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

          Comment

          • makedonche
            Senior Member
            • Oct 2008
            • 3242

            Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
            How much trust can you put in the hands of a politician...?

            I'm clinging to the belief that this decision goes beyond any measure of what could be considered 'normal politics', this is a decision that will ultimately change the history of the Macedonian people with possible implications to historical and cultural ties and it could finally sever all relationships with our kin throughout the diaspora.

            A decision to persue this path is an immense burden on any man, a decision that will equate to outright treachery and the trade of our identity, I can't believe that any man in Macedonia will willingly place his neck on the chopping block like this...
            Phoenix
            Hit the nail on the head!
            "Trust a politician"? - not likely, we have 20 years of proof!

            This decision will change Macedonia and Macedonians - detrimentally, just what the Greeks want - sever all relationships, drive a wedge between us, keep us separate or detached from our kin. This is what they have done since 1913 and continue to do and they will keep trying to do it politically/socially/ internationally. Keeping us divided in any way shape or form is their objective because it is easier to manipulate smaller sectionalised groups than it is one unified people/voice.

            Not just placing his neck on the chopping block, placed into a position of ultimate scrutiny, placed into a position of being able to demonstrate his integrity, unify the Macedonian people, placed in a position of being able to say "I stood up for Macedonia, I stood up for our identity, I did not give in, I did not sell us out, i did not trade or barter or negotiate my identity or that of my people" - not too many people have this opportunity or burden (depending on how you look at it)!
            WALK AWAY FROM NEGOTIATING OUR NAME! STOP ERODING OUR IDENTITY! WHO ARE THE GREEKS GOING TO ARGUE WITH IF WE STAND FIRM AND REFUSE TO NEGOTIATE? READ THE UNITED NATIONS CHARTER ON SELF DETERMINATION - THEN QUOTE IT TO GREECE ANY TIME THEY WANT A DISCUSSION!
            On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

            Comment

            • julie
              Senior Member
              • May 2009
              • 3869

              Amen, well said Makedonche
              "The moral revolution - the revolution of the mind, heart and soul of an enslaved people, is our greatest task."__________________Gotse Delchev

              Comment

              • Mastika
                Member
                • Feb 2010
                • 503

                Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                So Gruevski has accepted a name change?
                No he has not.

                Comment

                • makedonche
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2008
                  • 3242

                  Originally posted by Mastika View Post
                  No he has not.
                  Has he rejected a name change proposal?
                  Has he rejected negotiations on a name change?
                  Has he stopped negotiating?
                  Has he drawn a line in the sand and said we will not cross this?
                  On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                  Comment

                  • Mastika
                    Member
                    • Feb 2010
                    • 503

                    response to makedonce

                    Originally posted by makedonche View Post
                    Has he rejected a name change proposal?
                    Has he rejected negotiations on a name change?
                    Has he stopped negotiating?
                    Has he drawn a line in the sand and said we will not cross this?
                    The question was has he accepted a name change, of course he hasn't.

                    As for the rest of the questions he has really only done number 4.

                    Do I think that we should stop the negotiations? No, becuase I believe that that will only work against our cause. If ANY government accepts a name change it will likely cause a civil war. Why do you think we should not stop (which will probably be your next question)? Well, if we do stop then it will appear as if we are unreasonable and work against popular opinion regarding the issue. Eventually Greek efforts will all go to vain. As a country we already have 2/3 of the world behind us, which probably would not have happened had Macedonia not agreed to the negotiations. Has nobody here actually noticed?, the Macedonian government isnt interested in negotiating the identity and name. All they are interested in is appeasing Greece until we have gained enough diplomatic strength to win this fight. Everyone here speaks of these traitors and how bad all of these groups are for advocating the negotiations, but what people are forgetting is that the Macedonian government is trying to beat the Greeks at their own game. So far, they have generally done very good. People are way to quick of speaking about how this person is a traitor, predavnik etc. These words are used WAY WAY WAY to liberally. They should be reserved for people such as Ljubčo Georgievski who are ACTUALLY sell-outs, not just anyone who happens to disagree with your opionion. We will eventually prevail, this requires us to be diplomatic.

                    Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                    Do you know with absolute certainty that Gruevski would not capitulate on the name?
                    I know it wasn't directed at me, but this question has no answer.

                    Comment

                    • Prolet
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2009
                      • 5241

                      Gruevski’s exact position on the name issue is unclear – he speaks of a ‘red line’ that we all supposedly know, yet he’s never made any public statement as to what that ‘red line’ actually is.
                      Why should he? The media reports everything, why should Grujo tell what goes on behind closed doors? He is keeping his cards close to his chest as anybody would if they were in his position. The Greeks did exactly the same thing, the only reason why we found out the Greek position is because Grujo told everyone, as he should have. Why didnt Crvenkovski do that while he was negotiating?
                      МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                      Comment

                      • Vangelovski
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 8531

                        Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                        Why should he? The media reports everything, why should Grujo tell what goes on behind closed doors? He is keeping his cards close to his chest as anybody would if they were in his position. The Greeks did exactly the same thing, the only reason why we found out the Greek position is because Grujo told everyone, as he should have. Why didnt Crvenkovski do that while he was negotiating?
                        Prolet, I'm begining to understand why you support UMD.
                        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                        Comment

                        • Prolet
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2009
                          • 5241

                          Vangelovski, So you think that Grujo should just come out and tell everybody what is being discussed?? Why on earth would he do that?? That would be the biggest mistake, the UMD should be putting pressure on the Government not to change our name.
                          МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

                          Comment

                          • Soldier of Macedon
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 13670

                            Who cares what the UMD are doing, you and the handful here would support them anyway, correct? That being the case, why even bother.
                            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                            Comment

                            • makedonche
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2008
                              • 3242

                              Originally posted by Prolet View Post
                              Vangelovski, So you think that Grujo should just come out and tell everybody what is being discussed?? Why on earth would he do that?? That would be the biggest mistake, the UMD should be putting pressure on the Government not to change our name.
                              Prolet
                              Sorry to jump in here- can I just ask if you are a member of UMD?
                              I can tell you that I am a financial member!
                              On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

                              Comment

                              • Risto the Great
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 15658

                                Prolet, I genuinely would be surprised if the UMD has more than 50 members in Australia. The internet has been a wonderful tool for them. I have no idea why you think the UMD has influenced anyone or anything Prolet.

                                Originally posted by Prolet
                                the UMD should be putting pressure on the Government not to change our name.
                                Instead of suggesting Democratic Republic of Macedonia you mean?
                                Risto the Great
                                MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                                "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                                Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                                Comment

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