Financial Crisis in Greece

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  • Coolski
    Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 747

    What you failed to mention Eric is that while Greece was was leeching from the EU, it was using that money as a point of leverage over Macedonia, in addition to its political clout based on perceived ancient glory.

    Now that Greece is on its knees and no longer has the money nor the means to fabricate a sense of entitlement from the EU, it means that Macedonia has gained so much.

    When you have been armed with a stick and someone is attacking you with a machine gun, and their gun is later replaced with a stick, that is a huge gain. You should properly understand just what an impact Greece's disgusting policies have had on Macedonia and realise:
    A) How resilient Macedonians are; and
    B) Forgiveness will not come cheap.

    Our politicians are our biggest obstacle to our cause, not because they are too stubborn. It is because they are not stubborn enough to make the full extent of our discontent known.
    - Секој чоек и нација има можност да успеат колку шо си дозволуваат. Нема изговор.
    - Every human and nation has the ability to be as great or as weak as they allow themselves to be. No excuses.

    Comment

    • Coolski
      Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 747

      Anyone know the outcome of this debate?
      - Секој чоек и нација има можност да успеат колку шо си дозволуваат. Нема изговор.
      - Every human and nation has the ability to be as great or as weak as they allow themselves to be. No excuses.

      Comment

      • EricTheRed
        Junior Member
        • Oct 2012
        • 41

        What I meant in my last sentence is that Macedonia needs not even concern herself with Greece. Your politicians being stubborn or not matters little, since I come to understand that the current government is a sell-out(just like ours).
        So whether Macedonia has a stick and Greece has a machine gun or vice versa is irrelevant, because there shouldn't be a conflict in the first place. I repeat, Macedonia should declare the IA null and void and change the name, there is no need to debate your name with Greece. For the past 10 years there is almost nothing Greece can do to pressure Macedonia itself, except blocking the country's entrance to EU and NATO. Macedonia can simply ignore these organizations, abolish the acronym and stand up as a sovereign nation.
        Especially NATO is an obsolete structure without purpose in today's world, since the next world war will end in 1 day with 99% of humans dead. Even the EU is not structured properly(you keep talking about how Greece squeezed money out of Germany, France etc, but you fail to mention that it was greek, spanish, italian and others' purchases of german cars, arms etc that drove Germany's growth into what it is today).
        Macedonia and Greece however are still not standing on equal ground, and they never will as long as the first's NAME is being negotiated. Hence my above proposition.

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          Eric, I assume you are Greek.
          You have a better grasp of the situation than most Macedonians or Greeks.

          cheers
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • EricTheRed
            Junior Member
            • Oct 2012
            • 41

            Indeed I am Greek Risto, and thats exactly the reason why I am interested in the dispute between the 2 countries. Because a conclusion in an argument can not be safely reached unless someone researches the positions, interests etc of of both sides, I decided to join this forum to understand Macedonians' viewpoint and possibly inform whoever interested about Greece's views on the issue.

            Comment

            • George S.
              Senior Member
              • Aug 2009
              • 10116

              etr do you see how you country greece got hold of macedonia.How it on the pretext that it liberated macedonia called it the occupied lands yes they were militarily.How it tried to assimilate people.How it tried to shift people with the population exchanges.etc.Prior to the take over or patition which was illegal as it wasn't approved by the macedonian people,the country as a whole,i did say macedonia was a country as a whole under the ottomans.Also Macedonia was carved up amongst 4 countries please explain to me how after milleums a country can suddenly belong to four other countries unless it was a land grab.All four countries it was said did no t like their share they wanted more.Also neither would recognise each minority as eg macedonian.Also that meant not giving any rights.
              Your country greece made up the propaganda like in the seventh century ad the slavs came & destroyed the macedonians.But this is not true the macedonians were still existing & still do.We have some slavic influence but not enough to dominate us.If what greece says about us is tru then the greeks are themselves slavs & so are other countries.
              Also in the partitioning bulgaria wanted the whole of macedonia for themselves but they missed out on the aegean as it arrived too late for the battle.
              So the rest is history.
              "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
              GOTSE DELCEV

              Comment

              • EricTheRed
                Junior Member
                • Oct 2012
                • 41

                WARNING: This will probably sound as rambling about a variety of subjects, you've been warned.
                First of all, regarding the population exchange, I assume you mean the big one that happened 1922. Did you ever consider the fact that Greece was forced to exchange populations with Turkey due to our defeat in the previous war? Meaning that the exchange itself was not planned in order to increase the number of Greeks in Macedonia-rather, it was the territory itself that had the space needed to place in all the new arrivals, since both Thessaly and the Peloponnese were unable to support an extra 2 million people. These people would have certainly preferred to remain in Asia Minor, where they had lived since ancient times.
                Can you see the analogy with the Macedonians? Almost every greek has some1 in the family who was expelled from asia minor and pontus in 1922. This was also not approved by them, who were the majority, and hence it wasnt legal. As the years passed, even the great community of Constantinople was slowly exterminated, to the point it numbers a sad 5.000 ppl. These peoples' situation is like the one described in your post, and even worse, since there is no longer even a minority to recognize.
                You will ask me why mention all this. You see, when any greek speaks of stuff like historical justice and reclaiming lost lands etc etc everyone here says he is a delusional peasant fascist who dreams of touching almighty Turkey, or that these displaced people werent greeks but christian turks etc...Thus denying their existence and their background. Why wouldnt the Macedonians be the average delusional peasants who dream of touching (the comparatively) almighty Greece, in the same context of thought?

                Why should a Greek who knows the above sympathize with the Macedonians and recognize their existence, when his own existence isnt recognized by them, since according to most of you most of us greeks are turks, ethiopians, albanians, arvanites etc. What differs the 2 peoples so much(Macedonians and Greeks) that the 1st survived almost intact 2000 yrs later and the 2nd got completely extinct(considering the fact that the greeks far outnumbered the Macedonians and almost everyone else in eastern mediterrenean during AND AFTER the roman invasion, and no known mass genocide took place. Why would all these millions of people dissappear completely off the face of the earth?).
                Your mentality towards the greeks is thus the same as theirs' towards your people.For example, if you consider lets say me as an Ethiopian/Arvanite/Turk etc, while I am greek, and its not unfair, then there would be nothing wrong with me considering you as a Bulgarian, while you are in fact Macedonian.(EXAMPLE, dont get me wrong). Hence, double standards!

                In history, every nation suffers and loses territory, and Macedonia is no exception. While it is fair and just to protect the minorities and have them recognized(at least there are still Macedonians to be protected in Aegean, while there are no Greeks in Asia Minor to protect any more-Greeks werent as savage as the Turks, this mere fact proves it), I am afraid that the quest for historical justice and retribution is often not only fruitless but also counterproductive. So focus on protecting the remaining Macedonians in Greece and getting everyone to call Macedonia with its rightful name, both very noble causes, but dont expect any justice about my country's past actions against the macedonians , history proves it is rarely granted, and when it does it brings together a new round of disasters(check Prusso-French war of mid 19th century, it took 2 global wars for the french and prussians to put historical grievances aside).

                Forgive me for this long and perhaps irrelevant at some points post.

                Comment

                • Niko777
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2010
                  • 1895

                  Why should a Greek who knows the above sympathize with the Macedonians and recognize their existence, when his own existence isnt recognized by them, since according to most of you most of us greeks are turks, ethiopians, albanians, arvanites etc.
                  We do recognize self identity. If someone identifies as Greek, we recognize them as a Greek. The same is not true for us, we self identify as Macedonians and Greeks do not recognize this, they refuse to call us Macedonians and instead resort to changing or censoring our name.

                  Comment

                  • Niko777
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2010
                    • 1895

                    I am afraid that the quest for historical justice and retribution is often not only fruitless but also counterproductive.
                    What if the quest for justice and retribution is for victims who are still alive? Example, the Macedonian children refugees from the Greek civil war who today are not allowed to settle back into their own homes because their citizenship and properties were confiscated by the Greek government?

                    Comment

                    • George S.
                      Senior Member
                      • Aug 2009
                      • 10116

                      Greece militarily went in there illegally & took a part of macedonia illegally.Over the years the govt has used all sorts of propaganda mostly denial of the macedonia minority & other factors which acrtually evidence what greece has done is wrong & is totally illlegal.
                      "Ido not want an uprising of people that would leave me at the first failure, I want revolution with citizens able to bear all the temptations to a prolonged struggle, what, because of the fierce political conditions, will be our guide or cattle to the slaughterhouse"
                      GOTSE DELCEV

                      Comment

                      • Stojacanec
                        Member
                        • Dec 2009
                        • 809

                        Originally posted by EricTheRed View Post
                        WARNING:

                        Why should a Greek who knows the above sympathize with the Macedonians and recognize their existence, when his own existence isnt recognized by them, since according to most of you most of us greeks are turks, ethiopians, albanians, arvanites etc. What differs the 2 peoples so much(Macedonians and Greeks) that the 1st survived almost intact 2000 yrs later and the 2nd got completely extinct(considering the fact that the greeks far outnumbered the Macedonians and almost everyone else in eastern mediterrenean during AND AFTER the roman invasion, and no known mass genocide took place. Why would all these millions of people dissappear completely off the face of the earth?).
                        ETR, I think you have this backwards. Greece has systematically entered into a campaign for the non recognition of a Macedonia/n as a country, language and people.

                        I don't think a Greek would call me a Bulgarian for the fear that I would lable him a Turk, for example.

                        There is evidence of how modern greeks have come to exist today posted in this form but that is not the issue we have here because Greece has its name and its identity. Instead Greece is systematically trying to take that right away from Macedonians.

                        I realise the population exchange was forced upon you, but I struggle with the idea that turnkish nationals of yesteryear would dictate how I should call myself when my lineage is proven as far as records can be found in Macedonia.

                        Comment

                        • vicsinad
                          Senior Member
                          • May 2011
                          • 2337

                          Originally posted by EricTheRed View Post
                          Why should a Greek who knows the above sympathize with the Macedonians and recognize their existence, when his own existence isnt recognized by them, since according to most of you most of us greeks are turks, ethiopians, albanians, arvanites etc.
                          Macedonians labeling Greeks as something else is mainly a response to Greece's refusal to recognize the Macedonian identity. If you look at it as a "who started it" issue, clearly the Greeks did. However, I think this response by Macedonians is unproductive and a waste of time because it doesn't bring the two peoples any closer, and the further they are apart, the less likely it is for them to resolve anything. So while Greece will and does deserve the blame for causing the problem, Macedonians share the blame for the increasing distance from any sort of solution when they embark on these silly arguments based on ancestral and genetic evidence that suggest "oh, but the Greeks aren't really Greeks."

                          Comment

                          • United MKD
                            Member
                            • Jul 2011
                            • 547

                            Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
                            the less likely it is for them to resolve anything.
                            For example our name, right?

                            Comment

                            • vicsinad
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2011
                              • 2337

                              Originally posted by United MKD View Post
                              For example our name, right?
                              Yes, one of many. Macedonians want, and rightfully deserve, to determine the name of their own country. Whatever slight chance there is of a future Greek government or populace going along with that any time in the immediate or distant future, Macedonians are not helping the Greek society get any closer to that point by using silly arguments that the Greeks are not really Greeks. Sure, it's not Macedonia's problem that Greeks can't get their act together in that regards; but if you're looking from a "self-interest" point of view, you have to ask how can Macedonia and Macedonians behave in a way that will, if not settle the issue, at least make it more manageable and the common Greek attitude less widespread?... if the Macedonians really want a positive, working relationship with Greece and the Greeks. I think arguing that Greeks aren't really Greeks is being just as petty as Greeks arguing Macedonians aren't Macedonians. One unproductive attitude is enough to makes resolution or understanding difficult; two unproductive attitudes makes it nearly impossible.

                              Though, Eric for a moment, maybe you can understand why Macedonians are rooting (in a sense) for Greece's economic and internal instability. Macedonia has very little regional leverage (if any), and if Greece's leverage keeps on decreasing, than maybe (is the belief by some Macedonians) that Greece will give way a little on these issues as the playing field might become a little more level. Then again, when there are international economic troubles, not just regional, it becomes easier to ignore these issues. Though, there's a chance that countries will more quickly overcome these issues so they can collaborate on economic well-being.

                              Comment

                              • EricTheRed
                                Junior Member
                                • Oct 2012
                                • 41

                                I think that vicsinad got the point of my post, and he managed to describe my thoughts far better than I did, really gj.

                                About the victims who are still alive, I already stated that they must be protected and recognized, and regarding the people who were ousted during the civil war, I also agree that they must be allowed entrance back into the country and receive compensation(well, Greece cannot actually afford that last thing right now....)

                                Our behavior towards Macedonia right now is bad, I recognize that. Greeks generally distrust most in the neighborhood, but there are reasons to do so: in the past 2 centuries this place has seen a lot of wars, and while Greece happened to be victorious in most of them when involved, thus increasing its size, those wars nevertheless made us feel insecure, increasing our paranoia over security and outside enemies. Especially regarding Macedonia, a lot of people here still think that this country has territorial aspirations against Greece, hidden well behind the name issue. While there is no logical explanation behind these fears, they still exist, and especially during these times of weakness, our society becomes even more anxious about greece's survival. I didnt say all that to make Macedonians sympathize with us, but rather to explain our (paranoid in a sense) mentality regarding our neighbors in general.

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