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  • DraganOfStip
    Senior Member
    • Aug 2011
    • 1253

    Originally posted by vicsinad View Post
    Most likely related to the migration issue, but in times like these, everything might need to be questioned. Did the aircraft really enter Macedonian territory? If so, was it just an accident? Or is Greece trying stir the waters?



    Macedonia says Greek military plane violated its airspace

    A Greek military airplane entered Macedonia's airspace at 10:30 CET on Thursday, Skopje-based TV Telma has reported.

    The media outlet identified the plane as "a Phantom" - i.e., an F-4 - adding it flew about one kilometer into the Macedonian space.

    The jet was flying in a group deployed over Idomeni, on the border between the two countries, as part of refugee crisis control efforts in northern Greece.

    Macedonian Army sources told the station they registered several Hellenic Air Force flights near the border, while soldiers made "visual observations from the ground" and concluded that one jet had crossed the border.

    According to the broadcaster, the army is currently determining how far the plane had flown into Macedonia's airspace.
    The Greek army stated yesterday that it would be conducting an exercise today around the Idomeni refugee camp,so these maneuvers were previously announced.
    Even if one of the airplanes did cross into Macedonian air space (no confirmation yet from our authorities) I don't think it has anything to do with a deliberate hostile act and could very well be a flight error while turning the plane around.
    No incident whatsoever.The story is overblown in the wake of the biggest political earthquake in Macedonia so far.
    ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
    ― George Orwell

    Comment

    • vicsinad
      Senior Member
      • May 2011
      • 2337

      Dragan:

      I was thinking that pro-government media could be overblowing it to distract from what's going on.

      On the flip side, Greece announced that these exercises were, at least in part, a response to Turkey's continued violation of Greece's airspace, especially regarding certain islands.

      Comment

      • Odi Zvezdo
        Junior Member
        • Apr 2016
        • 63

        Originally posted by Tomche Makedonche View Post
        I think it's fair to say that this is what the majority of us here have been waiting for, especially since it's obvious neither side has any intention whatsoever in working together to resolve these issues, but then again, who is there to take their place?

        If there was ever a time for someone else to stand up and be heard, it's now.
        Prost narod sme....as Makedonci we've never lived up to expectations when it comes to doing something on our own accord...There's always an external pressure making decisions on our behalf...when are we as Macedonians actually going to stand up to the rest of the world and identify ourselves as a sovereign nation who will not take crap from anyone and not listen to the likes of the US and bs organisations like the EU?

        Comment

        • vicsinad
          Senior Member
          • May 2011
          • 2337

          RistotheGreat mentioned the most fitting situation...government in exile.

          Comment

          • vicsinad
            Senior Member
            • May 2011
            • 2337

            Meanwhile, Russia is saying that this all boils down to EU causing problems in Macedonia because Gruevski didn't join in on sanctions against Russia and supports Russia's energy positions:

            Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

            Comment

            • Phoenix
              Senior Member
              • Dec 2008
              • 4671

              Originally posted by DraganOfStip View Post
              The scariest part of all is that despite all the wrongdoings of both DPMNE and SDSM, Macedonians will still vote for them on the next elections (whenever they're held).Just look at the last elections in 2014 - 68,3% of the 1120744 voters gave their vote for these 2 parties.Or if you exclude the albanian votes,that percentage rises to over 80%!With this mindset one of these 2 parties will again win and will continue dragging Macedonia to the bottom like the past 25 years.I guess we deserve no better either.
              ..."Every nation gets the government it deserves'

              Joseph de Maistre.

              Sadly, there's no finer example of this than in Macedonia.
              In a country where apathy is the national 'sport', you're condemned to wallow in perpetual mediocrity at best, no first world dreams will ever materialize from that cesspool.

              The thing Macedonia needs most is a sign at all border crossings...

              'Abandon All Hope - Ye Who Enter Here.

              Since independence (and I use that term loosely) not a single credible movement has spawned or evolved from the grassroots or cascaded down from the elite to challenge the status quo...

              Comment

              • Mariovec
                Junior Member
                • May 2012
                • 19

                Funny how they chant Nema pravda nema mir when they have been running away from pravda to have the fake mir the last 25 years.

                Comment

                • Tomche Makedonche
                  Senior Member
                  • Oct 2011
                  • 1123



                  SEC: All conditions for June 5th Elections are Met

                  Friday, 15 April 2016

                  The State Election Commission, by six votes 'for', made a decision Friday that all conditions for conducting the snap poll on 5 June were met.

                  Under Zaev's orders SEC chairman Aleksandar Cicakovski and the members of opposition SDSM, Violeta Duma and Igor Milev, walked out of the session ahead of the voting process. At this point, the SDSM simply ran out of excuses to indefinitely delay the elections, despite the fact they themselves asked for early elections.

                  The decision is a response to the international community request for SEC to present its final stand on the country's preparedness for holding the elections.

                  As the vote by the SEC was taking place, the SEC head Aleksandar Cicakovski was seen sitting in a bar with former 'independent mediator' Peter Van Houtte who now works as an advisor with Soros financed "Open Society". According to individuals seated nearby, Cicakovski was practically issuing a status report to Van Houtte awaiting further instructions.


                  NOTE: Yes again its MINA, but the link includes a pic of Cicakovski with Van Houtte

                  For anyone who isn't aware of Van Houtte's views on Macedonia, Vicsinad posted the following article on this thread not long ago: http://www.dw.com/en/eu-diplomat-cri...ear/a-19138002
                  Last edited by Tomche Makedonche; 04-17-2016, 09:36 PM.
                  “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                  Comment

                  • Tomche Makedonche
                    Senior Member
                    • Oct 2011
                    • 1123



                    Macedonia President’s Amnesty Move Prompts Civil Unrest

                    Street protests erupt in the capital; U.S., European officials condemn pardons

                    By Marcus Walker and Laurence Norman
                    April 14, 2016 4:57 p.m. ET

                    The Macedonian president’s amnesty for politicians accused of fraud and corruption has sparked mounting street protests in the country’s capital and complaints from the European Union and U.S., highlighting concerns about backsliding on democratic governance in parts of Eastern Europe.

                    The tensions come at an awkward time for the EU because the bloc is relying on the small ex-Yugoslav country to block off the Balkan migration route. Hundreds of thousands of refugees and migrants have used the route to reach Northern Europe over the past year.

                    On Wednesday evening, protesters ransacked an office used by the presidency in downtown Skopje, the capital. With more demonstrations planned by civil-society activists and the opposition, supporters of the ruling VMRO party were mobilizing for counter-demonstrations, although the party also has criticized the president’s amnesty decision, at least publicly.

                    “The situation is unpredictable and out of control,” said Borjan Jovanovski, chief editor of Internet-based broadcaster Nova TV, which is critical of the government. “The amnesty decision by the president was shocking, it suspends the rule of law, and it could seriously destabilize an already unstable situation.”

                    The EU and U.S. have condemned the pardons by President Gjorge Ivanov, who announced Tuesday amnesty for all 56 politicians and other figures facing probes by an independent special prosecutor over alleged abuse of power. The move effectively neutralized the investigation, which was launched last year as part of an EU-brokered effort to defuse a political crisis sparked by the allegations.

                    U.S. and EU diplomats lobbied Mr. Ivanov on Thursday to reverse his decision. A senior EU official said Western countries would move aggressively against VMRO head Nikola Gruevski and other senior Macedonian officials if the amnesty remained in place. Among the possible penalties under discussion are a travel ban in the EU’s Schengen zone for senior Macedonian politicians, the withdrawal of assistance for Skopje on the migration crisis, and a halt to support for the country’s EU and NATO membership bids, the official said.
                    President Ivanov has said the amnesty was necessary to allow Macedonia to move beyond its political crisis.

                    The standoff underscores EU officials’ concerns about a turn to nationalistic and authoritarian politics in parts of Europe’s post-Communist East in recent years.

                    Macedonia was held up as a potent example of democratic transition until the 2000s, but its governance is widely seen as having deteriorated since then. According to a new report by U.S.-based think tank Freedom House, Macedonia’s scores on various aspects of liberal democracy have declined over the past decade, and a “populist ruling elite” has “dismantled checks and balances.” The nonprofit group Reporters Without Borders says press freedom has declined sharply.

                    One source of the problem is Macedonia’s dispute with neighboring Greece, which believes the name “Macedonia” should be reserved for the northern Greek region called Macedonia. Greece has in recent years blocked Macedonia’s bid to open membership talks with the EU and NATO, putting Macedonian hopes of joining the West’s most important organizations out of reach.

                    Years of U.S.-mediated talks have failed to find a mutually acceptable name for the country. Continual isolation has eroded the incentive for the country’s rulers to stick to a Westernizing course in domestic politics.

                    “The rot set in when the country lost that crucial European perspective,” said James Ker-Lindsay, a Southeast Europe specialist at the London School of Economics. A spokesman for Greece’s foreign ministry said Greece supports Macedonia’s European aspirations—subject to resolving its name dispute.

                    The scandal shaking Macedonia exploded in February 2015, when the opposition accused the government of then Prime Minister Gruevski, the country’s dominant politician over the past decade, of abuses including using the intelligence services to wiretap some 20,000 officials, journalists and other citizens.

                    The opposition released audiotapes allegedly of top officials including the prime minister discussing illegal activities. Mr. Gruevski denied any wrongdoing and accused the opposition of using fake recordings and plotting a coup.

                    A team of independent legal experts sent by the European Commission reported in June 2015 that the audiotapes “provide indications of unlawful activities and abuse of power by senior government officials.” High-ranking party and government members appeared to be involved in electoral fraud, corruption, blackmail, extortion, nepotism and cronyism, the experts, led by former EU official Reinhard Priebe, said.

                    Under EU pressure, the government and opposition agreed to hold elections in early 2016, following reforms and an independent investigation into the wiretap allegations. In January, as part of that deal, Mr. Gruevski stepped aside at least temporarily as prime minister ahead of the elections, now scheduled for June. His party was tipped to win.

                    The opposition Social Democrats said early this month they would boycott the elections, citing a lack of reforms to ensure a level playing field. EU officials, before the amnesty move, pressed them to withdraw their boycott. After the pardons, the EU said that under the current circumstances it was hard to see a free and fair vote going forward in June.

                    Brussels officials believe President Ivanov’s amnesty decision was intended to protect the VMRO’s grip on power and the circle around Mr. Gruevski. Some diplomats in Skopje believe, however, that Mr. Ivanov may have acted without the VMRO’s approval.

                    Mr. Gruevski at a news conference on Thursday said Mr. Ivanov’s amnesty was a mistake because the investigations would have proven wrongdoing only by the opposition.

                    Write to Marcus Walker at [email protected] and Laurence Norman at [email protected]
                    “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                    Comment

                    • vicsinad
                      Senior Member
                      • May 2011
                      • 2337

                      Clearly, Macedonia is simply a battlefield for European vs. Russian interests, as is the whole of Eastern Europe.

                      Comment

                      • Tomche Makedonche
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2011
                        • 1123

                        Macedonia is a battlefield for the self interests of the political elites who will quite happily barter anything and everything to whoever is willing to offer their assistance in seeing them obtain the opportunity to pillage the state’s economy and finances as they see fit.
                        “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                        Comment

                        • VMRO
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 1462

                          Open the border and let the refugees become our bargaining chip just as Turkey did.


                          Below is what was agreed between EU and Turkey.


                          Key points from the agreement


                          Returns: All "irregular migrants" crossing from Turkey into Greece from 20 March will be sent back. Each arrival will be individually assessed by the Greek authorities.

                          One-for-one: For each Syrian returned to Turkey, a Syrian migrant will be resettled in the EU. Priority will be given to those who have not tried to illegally enter the EU and the number is capped at 72,000.

                          Visa restrictions: Turkish nationals should have access to the Schengen passport-free zone by June. This will not apply to non-Schengen countries like Britain.

                          Financial aid: The EU is to speed up the allocation of €3bn ($3.3 bn; £2.3 bn) in aid to Turkey to help migrants.

                          Turkey EU membership: Both sides agreed to "re-energise" Turkey's bid to join the European bloc, with talks due by July.


                          Verata vo Mislite, VMRO vo dushata, Makedonia vo Srceto.

                          Vnatreshna Makedonska Revolucionerna Organizacija.

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                            The one thing that Macedonians have failed to understand is that you cannot have peace without justice. Peace at all costs has been driving them for the past 25 years and ironically, its this idea that prevents them from obtaining any peace.
                            It seems that someone finally gets it...Nema pravda, nema mir.

                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • Tomche Makedonche
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2011
                              • 1123

                              Here we go again...

                              The European Union has invited Macedonian leaders to talks on April 22 with the goal of ending a political crisis in the small Balkan country.


                              EU Offers To Host Talks To End Macedonian Political Crisis

                              By RFE/RL
                              April 19, 2016

                              The European Union has invited Macedonian leaders to talks on April 22 with the goal of ending a political crisis in the small Balkan country.

                              European Commission spokeswoman Maja Kocijancic suggested leaders from Macedonia's squabbling political parties meet in Vienna with European commissioner Johannes Hahn.

                              "The aim of the meeting will be to discuss ways to solve the crisis, and to ensure that leaders will continue with the implementation of the Przino agreement," Kocijancic told AFP on April 18, referring to an accord among Macedonian leaders brokered by the EU last year.

                              The meeting with Hahn, who is in charge of EU enlargement, would also discuss "reform priorities," she said.

                              In Skopje, the ruling VMRO-DPMNE conservative party said it would accept the invitation.

                              The main opposition party, the Social Democrats, said a decision on whether to attend would be made "in the coming days."

                              The country has been politically gridlocked for two years, but the crisis intensified on April 12 when President Gjorge Ivanov halted a probe into dozens of public figures suspected of involvement in corruption and a wiretapping scandal.

                              The move triggered street protests against Ivanov and the ruling party's leader, Nikola Gruevski. The demonstrations entered a second week on April 18, drawing several thousand, mostly young people who demanded Ivanov's resignation.

                              The protesters moved through Skopje streets chanting "No justice, no peace!" and threw paint at the Culture Ministry building. Protests were held also in five other cities, including the second-largest city of Bitola.

                              Macedonia announced snap elections on June 5, but the opposition vowed to boycott the vote on grounds that the conditions for free and fair polls had not been met -- a contention backed by the EU and the United States.

                              Macedonia has been a candidate for EU membership since 2005, but has yet to open accession talks.
                              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                              Comment

                              • vicsinad
                                Senior Member
                                • May 2011
                                • 2337

                                Tomche:

                                In response, at least there's the potential for a movement for non-party Macedonians to organize something. I found it good to read that there are people out there who don't feel as if SDSM or VMRO represent the Macedonians and want their own seat at the table. Yet, it seems as if SDSM is trying to get them under there wing:

                                As anti-government protests in Macedonia gain momentum, the protest leaders are demanding to be part of planned crisis talks brokered by the EU in Vienna.


                                Macedonia Protesters Want Say in Vienna Crisis Talks

                                As anti-government protests in Macedonia gain momentum, the protest leaders are demanding to be part of planned crisis talks brokered by the EU in Vienna.

                                Protesters from the “Protestiram” ["I Protest"] movement, which unites many civil rights activists and NGOs, are demanding to be part of new EU-assisted crisis talks between the four main political parties planned for Vienna on Friday.

                                The protest organizers, who say more and bigger protests are on the way, have also extended their list of demands.

                                Before talks take place, they demand the annullment of the decision to hold general elections on June 5 until conditions are met for truly free and fair polls.

                                They also seek the impeachment of President Gjorge Ivanov and the abolition of his decision to halt criminal investigations into high-ranking politicians and their associates.

                                They also request guarantees from all main political parties and from the Constitutional Court that they support the work of the Special Prosecution, which was formed last autumn with the task of investigating high-level crime.

                                The main opposition Social Democrats, SDSM, who back the anti-government protests and who have confirmed receiving an invitation from the EU to join the Vienna talks, say they are holding consultations with “Protestiram”.

                                “We will form our decision on whether and under what conditions we will participate in the talks based on consultations with the civil movements, as we are in this together,” a source from the SDSM told BIRN.

                                The crisis in Macedonia took a turn for the worse last week when President Ivanov dramatically pardoned 56 politicians and their associates from criminal investigation.

                                The Speaker of Parliament, Trajko Veljanovski, then confirmed the June 5 election date, which has been pushed by the ruling VMRO DPMNE party without the consent of the opposition.

                                The two decisions outraged opposition supporters and prompted protests in the capital, Skopje, and in other towns, including Bitola, Strumica, Veles, Kumanovo and Stip. Monday’s protest in Skopje saw up to 20,000 people on the streets.

                                In an attempt to salvage the EU crisis agreement from last year, the EU on Monday confirmed plans to invite Macedonia's four main party leaders to fresh talks in Vienna.

                                The talks will probably include the EU Enlargement Commissioner, Johannes Hahn, and most probably the EU and US ambassadors to Macedonia, Aivo Orav and Jess Baily.

                                A former speaker of the Macedonian parliament, Stojan Andov, told BIRN that the civil movements must be included in the talks.

                                “The climate has now formed for a wider front toward resolution of the crisis and the crumbling of this regime," he told BIRN.

                                "The civil associations and the smaller parties should absolutely be involved in future talks as they have shown they are a respectable force that can mobilize many citizens,” Andov added.

                                Meanwhile, the main ruling VMRO DPMNE party led by former Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski said it will participate in the talks.

                                However, little is known about the content of the parlays and what will be put on the table.

                                Political analyst and former MP Mersel Biljali said he did not have high hopes. “I don’t expect anything spectacular. The most we can hope for at such talks would be a deal on postponing the elections, especially because now the political conditions for elections are not met amid these dramatic events,” Biljali said.

                                Meanwhile, the civil movement Citizens for Macedonian Protesction, GDOM, which is comprised of ruling party supporters, also announced a big rally in front of the parliament on Thursday, in tandem with the anti-Gruevski protest.

                                Comment

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