Ancient Gods, Myths & Descent

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  • makedonche
    Senior Member
    • Oct 2008
    • 3242

    Ancient Gods, Myths & Descent

    Note from SoM: I have moved the discussion over to a new thread so the other one stays on topic. Plus, this is something that needs to be put out there and clarified.
    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



    Indigen
    Quick question for you my knowledgable colleague!
    Is "The Argead Macedonian Dynasty" an accurate statement?
    That would suggest that the Macedonian Royal house originated from Argios, according to the Greek version of events. According to Borza this is a contentious and yet to be proven fact.
    On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"
  • Soldier of Macedon
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2008
    • 13670

    #2
    Makedonche, the Argos that the Macedonian kings come from is not in the Peloponnese (which is what the myth is based on), but rather, it is Argos Orestikon in south-west Macedonia, which is located in the vicinity of today's Kostur region. This is how the myth was able to grow, basically a play on words, and a bit of opportunism by Alexander I and his buddy Herodotus.
    In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

    Comment

    • makedonche
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2008
      • 3242

      #3
      Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
      Makedonche, the Argos that the Macedonian kings come from is not in the Peloponnese (which is what the myth is based on), but rather, it is Argos Orestikon in south-west Macedonia, which is located in the vicinity of today's Kostur region. This is how the myth was able to grow, basically a play on words, and a bit of opportunism by Alexander I and his buddy Herodotus.
      SoM
      Many thanks for the clarification - any references or books I can look at regarding Argos Orestikon? save me ploughing through google etc.
      On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

      Comment

      • Soldier of Macedon
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 13670

        #4
        Yeah, it is cited by Appian (2nd century AD), who says Argos in Orestis is where the Macedonian Argeads came from. I think there may also be reference to this by Pausanias and Strabo, but I can't confirm yet as I haven't checked it out. All of their texts are available on the net, but I don't have the specific chapter, page citations handy, sorry mate.
        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

        Comment

        • makedonche
          Senior Member
          • Oct 2008
          • 3242

          #5
          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          Yeah, it is cited by Appian (2nd century AD), who says Argos in Orestis is where the Macedonian Argeads came from. I think there may also be reference to this by Pausanias and Strabo, but I can't confirm yet as I haven't checked it out. All of their texts are available on the net, but I don't have the specific chapter, page citations handy, sorry mate.
          SoM
          Thanks, will look into it in more detail!
          On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

          Comment

          • Soldier of Macedon
            Senior Member
            • Sep 2008
            • 13670

            #6
            And the myth of descent from Heracles was born.
            In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

            Comment

            • TrueMacedonian
              Senior Member
              • Jan 2009
              • 3810

              #7
              Ancient Gods, Myths & Descent

              Let's start with Darrhon god of healing;


              page 265


              Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

              Comment

              • TrueMacedonian
                Senior Member
                • Jan 2009
                • 3810

                #8
                Looking for good info on Zeirene the Macedonian Aphrodite if anyone can help.
                Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                Comment

                • TrueMacedonian
                  Senior Member
                  • Jan 2009
                  • 3810

                  #9
                  The following opinion is from William Tarn's 'Antigonos Gonatas' page 177

                  It is obvious that with the expansion of the dominant tribe, whatever its nationality, large Illyrian and Thracian elements must have been taken up into what subsequently was the Macedonian people. The Thracian element shows itself clearly in the Macedonian religion. The hellenizing kings brought in the Olympians; but these were not the gods of the people. Their pantheon can still be traced; in Greek eyes it was essentially Thracian; we may suspect that part of it, the water-worships at any rate, dates from before the Thracians and goes back to the Anatolian aborigines. Beside Sabazios-Dionysos, we find a whole group of obscure deities; Darron, the god of healing; Thaumos or Thaulos, the god of war; the Arantides, possibly his attendants; a local goddess of hunting, graecized as Artemis Gazoria; a strange god of sleep, Totoes; Bedu, the eponymous god of Edessa, identified now with the air, now with the water; the Sauadai or Thracian Seilenoi, old water spirits, afterwards made ministers of the god of wine. An inscription shows a Macedonian of Europos in the third century calling himself by the name of his Thracian god. The Illyrian element must be traced on other lines. The Macedonian capital of Pella was certainly an Illyrian foundation, as its old name Bounomos shows; and the same may be true of other towns also, though, except in the case of Pella, we know only the names which they bore in historical times.
                  Slayer Of The Modern "greek" Myth!!!

                  Comment

                  • Pelister
                    Senior Member
                    • Sep 2008
                    • 2742

                    #10
                    Thracian God/Macedonian God?

                    I am sure there will be plenty to discuss. Here is a video to start off with, pay attention to the period between 4.00 to 4.30. YouTube - The Mystery of The Thracians - tombs & gold treasures HD - DISCOVER BULGARIA - part 1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mukAFwUWxdk)


                    Here is some information about the Thracian god Zalmoxis from the Wikipedia article:



                    A number of etymologies have been given for the name. Diogenes Laertius (3rd century-4th century AD) claimed that Zalmoxis meant "bear skin". In his Vita Pythagorae, Porphyrius (3rd century) says that zalmon is the Thracian word for "hide" (τὴν γὰρ δορὰν οἱ Θρᾷκες ζαλμὸν καλοῦσιν). Hesychius (ca. 5th century) has zemelen (ζέμελεν) as a Phrygian word for "foreign slave".

                    The correct spelling of the name is also uncertain. Manuscripts of Herodotus' Historiae have all four spellings, viz. Zalmoxis, Salmoxis, Zamolxis, Samolxis, with a majority of manuscripts favouring Salmoxis. Later authors show a preference for Zamolxis. Hesychius quotes Herodotus, using Zalmoxis.

                    The -m-l- variant is favoured by those wishing to derive the name from a conjectured Thracian word for "earth", *zamol. Comparisons have also been made with the name of Zemelo, the Phrygian goddess of the earth, and with the Lithuanian chthonic god Zjameluks. However, this etymology is probably incorrect.

                    The -l-m- variant is admitted to be the older form and the correct form by the majority of Thracologists, as this is the form found in the older Herodotus manuscripts and other ancient sources. The -l-m- form is further attested in Daco-Thracian in Zalmodegikos, the name of a Getic King; and in Thracian zalmon, 'hide', and zelmis, 'hide' (PIE *kel-, 'to cover'; cf. English helm).
                    Later authors showed a preference to Zamol(xis) because it was probably most accurate. Although the banana who wrote this article claims that the etymology is 'probably incorrect', the invalid Slavic migration theory they evidently subscribe to shields them from stating the most obvious and closest cognate of ZAMOL(xis) to a modern tongue, which is ZEMJA/ZEMLJA/ZEMLE, present in the Slavic languages.

                    Comment

                    • Risto the Great
                      Senior Member
                      • Sep 2008
                      • 15658

                      #11
                      Zamol sounds like "to pray for" = Za Moli
                      Risto the Great
                      MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                      "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                      Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                      Comment

                      • DraganOfStip
                        Senior Member
                        • Aug 2011
                        • 1253

                        #12
                        Argaed dynasty

                        I'd like to know if any of you guys has sources to dispute the alleged Greeknes of the Argaed dynasty of Macedonian kings.The Greeks use this as one of their most powerful arguments about the alleged Greeknes of Ancient Macedonians.I haven't really looked in any other discussion,the answer may be there.If it is can you point me to it or if it's not does any of you have any information about how to dispute this claim?
                        ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                        ― George Orwell

                        Comment

                        • Soldier of Macedon
                          Senior Member
                          • Sep 2008
                          • 13670

                          #13
                          Dragan, I have moved your post to the relevant thread. Mythical descent was often claimed in antiquity, there are Scythians who claimed descent from Heracles and Persians who were tied to Perseus. This has nothing to do with how they identified in the ethnic sense, but rather it was an attempt to glorify monarchies by linking them to gods.
                          In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                          Comment

                          • Carlin
                            Senior Member
                            • Dec 2011
                            • 3332

                            #14
                            Hi Dragan and others,

                            I will take a stab at it. I'm not sure if this was already discussed at some point but here's my two cents.

                            One good analysis is provided by Ernst Badian. Here's the link:


                            I will copy and paste two paragraphs from his article -

                            Of course, as is well known, the claim to Hellenic descent is, as such, neither isolated nor even uncommon. It is perhaps the earliest we know of. And no other monarch had the imaginative boldness of Alexander I in having it authenticated, at the right political moment, by the most competent authority in Hellas. (Perhaps no other monarch ever found such an opportunity.) But by the fourth century, certainly, the rulers of Macedonian Lyncestis prided themselves on descent from the Corinthian Bacchiads--a royal dynasty fully comparable with the Temenid claims of their rivals at Aegae. The kings of the Molossi (another people not regarded as fully Hellenic) were descended from Achilles himself via Pyrrhus son of Neoptolemus: their very names proved it. And if not fully Hellenic, then at least equally ancient and connected with Greek myth. The distant Enchelei in Illyria were ruled by descendants of Cadmus and Harmonia, not unknown in the heart of Greece itself.(19)

                            Whether aristocratic families in Italy and Sicily were at this time also claiming descent from Greek heroes or if not Greek, at least Trojan does not at present seem possible to discover. We have no literature or "family" art going back to such an early period. On the other hand, it is known and uncontested that, long before the fifth century, Sicilian and Italian tribes and peoples were linked by Greek speculation, and had learned to link themselves, to Greeks or Trojans. The two were by no means clearly distinguished at the time, but conferred common legitimacy and antiquity as properly Homeric. Odysseus as Ktistes seems in fact to have preceded Aeneas, at least in central Italy.(20) This makes it very likely (one would think) that the ruling families of the peoples concerned took their own descent back to the mythical ancestor, thus legitimizing their rule. If so, they would precede Alexander I by several generations.


                            The most important points are:
                            i) The ruling elites, in general, took their own descent back to any (useful) mythical ancestor in order to justify and legitimize their rule.
                            ii) Rulers and elites of diverse tribes also took their own descent back any (useful) religious figure/"ancestor", such as Hercules/Herakles, Zeus, etc. In many cases, the kings and rulers styled themselves as 'sons of god'.

                            IMHO the main purpose here was to keep the ordinary people obedient and/or not to question authority, but also self-aggrandizement and political interests. Claiming descent from a 'god' or Achilles himself provided the ruler(s) with status of a Deity. I can only imagine how ridiculous even a medieval Christian ruler would sound to ordinary peasants if he claimed direct ethnic/blood descent from Jesus Christ - but this exactly what ancients were doing all along (apparently modern Greeks would be prepared to believe and accept such claims outright). The Macedonian Royal House utilized these ideas and concepts to the maximum for various reasons and goals.

                            Conclusion: whether the Macedonian ruling elite claimed descent from Hellenes (from Argos) or not is irrelevant. Other rulers did the same/similar thing. Does that prove their Greek ethnic origins? Only as much as it shows that Thracians, Illyrians, Italian tribes, and other nations of antiquity are all "Greeks" or "Trojans". Nevertheless, this is a useless debate. It misses the main topic to debate which is how and why these rulers identified in such a manner in the first place.

                            In addition to this, we actually know from various historical sources that Macedonian tribes were of non-Greek ethnic origin. One such example is Strabo which modern Greek nationalist historians like to cite, but clearly show they haven't read him carefully.

                            Strabo considered Thracians, Illyrians, and Epirotes to be Barbarians. In one passage he states that the Macedonian tribes of Orestae, Pelagonians and the Elimiotae were of 'ethnic' Epirotic origin which ended up being incorporated into Macedonia. Other tribes were mostly of Thracian stock, and a few Illyrian. Strabo clearly states that Macedonia is "held by the Thracians". It seems that he considered the Paeones/Paeonians and Argeadae to be Thracian tribes.

                            In the passage below, note how he lists Thracian tribes one after another: Pieres, Paeones, Edoni, Argeadae, etc.:

                            What is now called Macedonia was in earlier times called Emathia. And it took its present name from Macedon, one of its early chieftains. And there was also a city Emathia close to the sea. Now a part of this country was taken and held by certain of the Epeirotes and the Illyrians, but most of it by the Bottiaei and the Thracians. The Bottiaei came from Crete originally, so it is said, along with Botton as chieftain. As for the Thracians, the Pieres inhabited Pieria and the region about Olympus; the Paeones, the region on both sides of the Axius River, which on that account is called Amphaxitis; the Edoni and Bisaltae, the rest of the country as far as the Strymon. Of these two peoples the latter are called Bisaltae alone, whereas a part of the Edoni are called Mygdones, a part Edones, and a part Sithones. But of all these tribes the Argeadae, as they are called, established themselves as masters, and also the Chalcidians of Euboea; for the Chalcidians of Euboea also came over to the country of the Sithones and jointly peopled about thirty cities in it, although later on the majority of them were ejected and came together into one city, Olynthus; and they were named the Thracian Chalcidians.


                            Even the Bottiaei, a tribe of obscure origin, is of non-Greek origin. Some ancient authors list them as Thracians.

                            All of these tribes ended up forming the Macedonian kingdom and nation at some point, under the leadership of the Argeadae. The connection to mythical Hellenes from "Argos" seems almost obvious a choice to make based on the similarity between the two words: Argos and Argeadae.

                            Comment

                            • DraganOfStip
                              Senior Member
                              • Aug 2011
                              • 1253

                              #15
                              Thanks guys,this will come in handy when facing Gayreek ultra-nationalists in the future.Some more sources and quotes about the matter wouldn't hurt though...
                              ”A people that elect corrupt politicians, imposters, thieves and traitors are not victims... but accomplices”
                              ― George Orwell

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