United Macedonia Diaspora

[stravdziger]

I accused you of trash talking without even taking a moment to see what is important to the participants of this website.

The Macedonian Cause text that you linked is important to all of us. But the actions and behaviors of your members suggest that they don't adhere to the spirit of that text at all - not with the monotonous diatribes against your own people... the propaganda mill you are running against the UMD runs contrary to the high ideals you propose to have.

As for trash talking, yes, I will engage in that from time to time, but only after you or one of your mates run their mouths and really deserve it. I'd much prefer to keep it civil, but this bunch seems incapable of that, so it's up to you.

Have you just started visiting (the MTO) and you missed the Macedonian Cause thread? What part of it is "within hope"? Can we rely on your opinion given that you have had nothing more than a cursory appreciation of it?

I have a genuine appreciation for your website, not sure how cursory it is. As you stated, it can be a very useful reference, and I have found lots of interesting links and articles, especially on historical topics. On the other hand, the organized, synchronized, repetitive slanders on anything and everything UMD is clearly perpetrated by the so-called moderators, and more than likely, on behalf of a third-party organization that is the silent partner. So it's hardly an open forum - far from it. This is your site's big weakness - moderators that don't do their job.

The Macedonian freedom fighters of 100 odd years ago dealt with traitors far more appropriately.

Oh yes, what are you suggesting, here, Hristakis? Please finish this thought... are you advocating violence against those you have determined to be "traitors"? If so, please lay it out in the open. Show your ideology for what it really is.

Solid and thoughtful Macedonian dialogue that helps to crystallise sound Macedonian ideology is always exciting for real Macedonians. Julie is clearly a real Macedonian.

Yes, I've seen what passes for "solid and thoughtful" regarding her posts. However, I never suggested she wasn't a real Macedonian or that she wasn't patriotic, so don't go sneaking that in there edgewise.

But when it gets boring and we have shown you for what you are enough times, you will probably get deleted.

Yes, I'm sure I will, sooner rather than later... the MTO is an open forum?? You gotta be kidding!!!

[Vangelovski]

Screwdriver,

You're still dancing around the key issues here - the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. You obviously speak on behalf of UMD (seeing as you have made some definitive statements about what they believe).

In relation to UMD being the "defender" of the Macedonian cause, its certainly a "defender" of a cause, but not the one we adhere to. UMD's vision for Macedonia is one of a vassal state, subservient to foreign governments and unelected international organisations. Ours is one of a free Macedonian republic that is governed by its own body of citizens.

[stravdziger]

When the demands of the other side are not even close to reasonably, but open hostility and direct efforts to erode Macedonian nationhood, ignoring ethnical or cultural considerations, then what diplomatic strategy you offer?

Clearly, in the case of the current regime in Athens, there is no diplomatic solution without a major sea change in their attitude. But the attitudes in other countries that play a role in the Balkans are much more malleable. In some countries, these government attitudes seem to blow with the wind. This is where diplomacy plays its role. On an unofficial level, patriotic Macedonians who live in stable, free, influential countries like Australia must get involved with their own government's attitude to Macedonia. As constituents of these countries, we have been silenced by the Greeks for too long.

In order to understand the core of the problem Greeks have with us one must first understand its historical context and attachments and instead of just holding so called "diplomatic" position which imply readiness to find "mutually acceptable solution", should hold one firm position not making any concession to satisfy Greek demands because that will make us cancel our basic human rights.

That sounds great to me, Brat. From your mouth to Gruevski's ears... firmness on the key issues of identity is necessary, we are in 100% agreement. And, I would add, no solution will be possible if the issue of the Aegean Macedonians is ultimately ignored.

I find it highly immature approach to suggest that anyone here is advocating force.

I didn't suggest that in reference to you. As for some of your comrades, I have heard a variety of comments which hint at violence as being the answer - it is really quite pathetic.

Maybe you should read the legal possibilities or to invest in consulting someone to suggest what mechanisms we could use, as a smaller country, by rationally using the legal advantages and to achieve the right.

I will be presenting soon a complete strategy for legal solution of this dispute, think of yourself and UMD invited to help in its international backing, critique and implementation.

Excellent, Brat, I look forward to your proposals.

[stravdziger]

Screwdriver,

You're still dancing around the key issues here - the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. You obviously speak on behalf of UMD (seeing as you have made some definitive statements about what they believe).

In relation to UMD being the "defender" of the Macedonian cause, its certainly a "defender" of a cause, but not the one we adhere to. UMD's vision for Macedonia is one of a vassal state, subservient to foreign governments and unelected international organisations. Ours is one of a free Macedonian republic that is governed by its own body of citizens.

Evangelopoulos,

I don't dance, neither do I speak here "on behalf of" an organization - that is your job. But I am sympathetic to all patriotic Macedonian organizations, including the one that you work for, and including the one that you used to work for. As such, I am in the vast majority of diaspora Macedonians, who commend all Macedonian groups for their important work.

Your chosen topics are the Interim Accord, and the Framework Agreement - yes? Ok, poveli - what's on your mind, my good friend?

[Vangelovski]

Evangelopoulos,

I don't dance, neither do a I speak here "on behalf of" an organization - that is your job. But I am sympathetic to all patriotic Macedonian organizations, including the one that you work for, and including the one that you used to work for. As such, I am in the vast majority of diaspora Macedonians, who commend all Macedonian groups for their important work.

Your chosen topics are the Interim Accord, and the Framework Agreement - yes? Ok, poveli - what's on your mind, my good friend?

You've made definitive statements on behalf of UMD, to the point where you pathetically reinterpreted Meto's own words, which he himself acknowledged during his tour of Australia. Are you now acknowledging that your intepretation of UMD and Meto's name change proposals were wrong, seeing that Meto himself acknowledged that he felt it was a 'good idea at the time'?

UMD has consistently supported the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement. These are outright treason and a demonstration of UMD's vision for Macedonia - a subservient vassal state (i.e., a state that is governed by foreign powers rather than the body of Macedonian citizens). UMD supports the deconstruction of Macedonian national sovereignty and self-determination and supports Albanian terrorists maintaining state power. Seeing as you have spoken "definatively" on behalf of UMD, perhaps you can tell us if anything has changed in UMD's views?

[Risto the Great]

Let's take a closer look at what Meto actually seems to be stating in those quotes: nothing more than the obvious, which is that both NATO and the EU are organizations where individual members have veto powers (its part of the constitution when then joined, not easy to change), and one of those members is Greece, and, what are the chances that Greece will not exercise its veto? We all know and we all agree that it is 0%. What is so hard to understand about that? Unless you are intentionally unwilling to understand.

Since Macedonia already entered the UN under the "provisional reference" of FYR Macedonia, I think it's entirely likely that, when push comes to shove, Gruevski might accept NATO membership under that provisional reference as well, for internal NATO purposes only, and maintain the name Republic of Macedonia, if his government felt the ELECTORATE would see that as an acceptable deal.

Meto is essentially commenting on the reality of the situation, i.e. dealing with reality. He is not advocating a change of name, plain and simple. I don't know what the knuckleheads want him to do, talk about taking back the occupied territories by force with U.S. senators, perhaps? Da se izdishi pret svetot, like a over-emotional seljak, da mu e po lesno? No, he's trying to discuss politics with adults, and talking about hard realities.

In the second part, he's essentially talking about replacing the term "Yugoslav" from this provisional reference and replacing it with "Democratic" which is essentially a non-issue. We are not Slavs, and the Republic ne e na jug na nisto osven Srbija... so the term "Yugoslav" is a pretty stupid aspect of this reference, in the 21st century, when the Tito is dead, and the country Yugoslavia died with him.

This is your (and Meto's) typical banter about not wanting a new name but justifying a new one anyway. By the way, the UMD is quite the non-issue in the same way you describe above.

Ha, no that's not very diplomatic, nor is it an accurate description of what I believe. "Republic of Macedonia" is the country's name, end of story, this is exactly how it should remain. I don't know what part of that you don't understand.

Hey, you must be the UMD policy director. Tell everyone that the name is not for changing (or better yet, the Constitutional Name must be honoured) .... then dribble some stuff about how Democratic is better than South Slav. How can a real Macedonian take the UMD at face value. What a bunch of jokers. Who knows what they say to politicians given half a chance.

Oh yes, what are you suggesting, here, Hristakis? Please finish this thought... are you advocating violence against those you have determined to be "traitors"? If so, please lay it out in the open. Show your ideology for what it really is.

I don't think I suggested anything other than stating a fact that in the old days our freedom fighters had a very honourable and simple system in dealing with traitors. Nowadays it appears they are even allowed to lead Macedonia and be in positions of influence. How sad.

If you think I was suggesting that I would kill you or something, then you are being a over-dramatic. I just think you are a moron.

I have no idea why you would like to call me Hristakis. I have never been called that in my life. My name is Chris Milanko and I changed my surname back from Miliankos to Milanko as a form of protest at the way my people had been tormented in Southern Macedonia. I did this when I was 18 and the rest of my family followed my example at the same time.

So what is your name? Would you think it is appropriate to change it to a Serb or Greek sounding name? I know you don't mind changing Macedonia's name so I figure you must be comfortable with these kinds of things.

How exactly are you helping the UMD with this kind of dialogue?

How about those UMD membership numbers while you are at it.

I have a genuine appreciation for your website, not sure how cursory it is. As you stated, it can be a very useful reference, and I have found lots of interesting links and articles, especially on historical topics. On the other hand, the organized, synchronized, repetitive slanders on anything and everything UMD is clearly perpetrated by the so-called moderators, and more than likely, on behalf of a third-party organization that is the silent partner. So it's hardly an open forum - far from it. This is your site's big weakness - moderators that don't do their job.

It is cursory. You did not even know about the Macedonian Cause thread. Which is at the top of the list on the General section. Cursory is as cursory does.

There is no third party at all, all cards are on the table. We support the AMHRC on an initiative by initiative basis. They don't have any skeletons in their closet that we are aware of.

This is a very open forum, we let morons like you here. Given that it is an open forum, we have never had the UMD try to justify Democratic Macedonians (amongst other things) like you have here. Trust me, we have given him ample opportunity even before the taste in our mouths got a little sour with them.

Incidentally, if you want to set up some ground-rules, like for instance, no swearing, no ad hominem, perhaps an alternating referee, I would love that. Set the time, the rules and the place - either here or in another thread. I would look forward to a fair, authentic and sincere debate.

Do you deny making the observations about Democratic Macedonia at the beginning of this thread? (tip .... you cannot) That being the case, you are simply not worthy of debating with. You and your ilk are traitors.

Are we there yet?

[Vangelovski]

Hey, you must be the UMD policy director. Tell everyone that the name is not for changing (or better yet, the Constitutional Name must be honoured) .... then dribble some stuff about how Democratic is better than South Slav. How can a real Macedonian take the UMD at face value. What a bunch of jokers. Who knows what they say to politicians given half a chance.

This is one of the key problems with UMD - they make two completely contradictory statements in the same breath. Unprincipled Careerists is the term.

[Soldier of Macedon]

Screwdriver, what have you done to further the Macedonian Cause?

[Mr Brandy]

RtG - lot's of mud-slinging in this thread - it appears that Stravdziger has made a reasonable offer to a civilized debate. Why not take him up on the offer?

[Mr Brandy]

SoM - what do you have against cocktail parties?

[Risto the Great]

Mr Brandy, this puppet Stravdziger has brought all of this wonderful attention upon himself. In case you have missed something, there has been a debate and a very poor performance by Stravdziger (or is it Stravdzigeropoulos/Stravdzigeric ???).

I would sling more than mud if I could at someone who is trying to justify another name for Macedonia. Why would I bother debating with such a moron?

Do you want to take his place and see if you can polish up the dull ornament that is UMD?

[Soldier of Macedon]

RtG - lot's of mud-slinging in this thread - it appears that Stravdziger has made a reasonable offer to a civilized debate. Why not take him up on the offer?

How convenient that it appears in such a way to you. Are you sure it isn't scotch rather than brandy that you're sipping on?

SoM - what do you have against cocktail parties?

Nothing, if it doesn't include wasted donations of naive and ignorant Macedonians. What benefits have they brought for the Macedonian Cause when held by your conglomerate of UMD bananas?

[Vangelovski]

Brandy,

Treason, such as defending name changes on behalf of the organisation that has recently made you a board member, will be called exactly that. If you have come across any actual mud-slinging, you should make specific reference to it.

[Mr Brandy]

Mr Brandy, this puppet Stravdziger has brought all of this wonderful attention upon himself. In case you have missed something, there has been a debate and a very poor performance by Stravdziger (or is it Stravdzigeropoulos/Stravdzigeric ???).

I would sling more than mud if I could at someone who is trying to justify another name for Macedonia. Why would I bother debating with such a moron?

Do you want to take his place and see if you can polish up the dull ornament that is UMD?

RtG - it was pretty obvious that he argued the Democratic thing to play devil's advocate and challenge the concept with you - no need to get so hostile. He also made it quite clear that the he does not advocate any other name except Republic of Macedonia.

I was surprised that he made that offer - i wouldn't have - life's too short and I don't think you have any intention of changing your position regardless of what anyone could say.

Smile RtG - everyone needs to lighten up a bit.

[Mr Brandy]

Brandy,

Treason, such as defending name changes on behalf of the organisation that has recently made you a board member, will be called exactly that. If you have come across any actual mud-slinging, you should make specific reference to it.

Sorry V - I am not a board member and we might be working with different definitions of mud-slinging but if the above is a civilized debate then I'm going to pour myself a double.