United Macedonia Diaspora

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  • Prolet
    Senior Member
    • Sep 2009
    • 5241

    Buktop, Do you have their list of achievements for 2009?
    МАКЕДОНЕЦ си кога кавал ќе ти ја распара душата,зурла ќе ти го раскине срцето,кога секое влакно од кожата ќе ти се наежи кога ќе видиш шеснаесеткрако сонце,кога до коска ќе те заболи кога ќе слушнеш ПЈРМ,кога немаш ни за леб,а полн си во душата затоа што ја сакаш МАКЕДОНИЈА. МАКЕДОНИЈА во срце те носиме.

    Comment

    • Soldier of Macedon
      Senior Member
      • Sep 2008
      • 13670

      Let's throw up a hypothetical situation here, let's just say, that the Macedonian Government did accept a name change in the UN, and the UMD (as was shown in any case with the 'democratic' prefix) were supportive of this. Then another name change was agreed for bilateral use with Greece, again, with the support of the UMD (as was also shown).

      All of their accomplishments thus far would have been dwarfed to insignificance were this situation to transpire, and the animosity towards them would be much greater than it is now, of that I can assure everybody.

      Buktop, would you, in such a situation, still support the UMD? I don't think you would, but let me know either way.

      We should be thankful that it never reached that stage, but the fact that the UMD were willing to support such a move at the time, and the danger it posed to the Macedonian identity, can never be forgotten. It is a lesson learned, for nearly everyone except (ironically) the UMD.
      In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

      Comment

      • Vangelovski
        Senior Member
        • Sep 2008
        • 8531

        Originally posted by Buktop View Post
        Have you visited their website yet? There are a great deal of achievements that you should take a look at.

        I am not saying that they are gods who's every move deserves praise, I am just saying that they do not deserve half of the hatred that we have seen. Constructive criticism is one thing, out right maliciousness is a different matter that holds no place in the Macedonian Diaspora.
        Buktop,

        I can only really see a couple of achievements and most of them were in relation to charity work. In terms of addressing issues of national importance, UMD hasn't achieved anything. But please point out what you think they have "achieved".
        If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

        The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

        Comment

        • Buktop
          Member
          • Oct 2009
          • 934

          Originally posted by Soldier of Macedon View Post
          Let's throw up a hypothetical situation here, let's just say, that the Macedonian Government did accept a name change in the UN, and the UMD (as was shown in any case with the 'democratic' prefix) were supportive of this. Then another name change was agreed for bilateral use with Greece, again, with the support of the UMD (as was also shown).

          All of their accomplishments thus far would have been dwarfed to insignificance were this situation to transpire, and the animosity towards them would be much greater than it is now, of that I can assure everybody.

          Buktop, would you, in such a situation, still support the UMD? I don't think you would, but let me know either way.

          We should be thankful that it never reached that stage, but the fact that the UMD were willing to support such a move at the time, and the danger it posed to the Macedonian identity, can never be forgotten. It is a lesson learned, for nearly everyone except (ironically) the UMD.
          No I wouldn't.

          That is right, it should be a lesson learned, and to tell you the truth, I doubt UMD will ever make such statements again.
          "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

          Never once say you walk upon your final way
          though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
          Our long awaited hour will draw near
          and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

          Comment

          • Buktop
            Member
            • Oct 2009
            • 934

            Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
            Buktop,

            I can only really see a couple of achievements and most of them were in relation to charity work. In terms of addressing issues of national importance, UMD hasn't achieved anything. But please point out what you think they have "achieved".
            Well maybe you should look again
            "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

            Never once say you walk upon your final way
            though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
            Our long awaited hour will draw near
            and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

            Comment

            • Vangelovski
              Senior Member
              • Sep 2008
              • 8531

              Originally posted by Buktop View Post
              No I wouldn't.

              That is right, it should be a lesson learned, and to tell you the truth, I doubt UMD will ever make such statements again.
              Even so, it contiues to support the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement.
              If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

              The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

              Comment

              • Phoenix
                Senior Member
                • Dec 2008
                • 4671

                Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                You know exactly which definition I meant, I believe perhaps they should spend a little more time choosing words more carefully.

                How do I lack honesty Phoenix? Can you show me where I have lied about my feelings on this issue? Can you show me where I have misrepresented the facts in a blatant or intentional manner?
                Buktop, you lack honesty to the cause because of your unqustioning friendship with Koloski. It may be an admirable quality to defend a close pal at all costs but your defence goes beyond the typical relationship of a mutual friendship, in this case the costs are astronomically much higher.

                Koloski has made many unfortunate statements and the direction where he leads his organization could have serious ramifications for the wider Macedonian community, you prefer to act as his apologist rather than risk your close relationship with him, that's being dishonest to yourself and the interests of the broader Macedonian community.

                Comment

                • Vangelovski
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 8531

                  Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                  Buktop, you lack honesty to the cause because of your unqustioning friendship with Koloski. It may be an admirable quality to defend a close pal at all costs but your defence goes beyond the typical relationship of a mutual friendship, in this case the costs are astronomically much higher.

                  Koloski has made many unfortunate statements and the direction where he leads his organization could have serious ramifications for the wider Macedonian community, you prefer to act as his apologist rather than risk your close relationship with him, that's being dishonest to yourself and the interests of the broader Macedonian community.
                  Its also being dishonest with Meto and leading him to believe that what he's doing has the support of the wider community.
                  If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                  The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                  Comment

                  • indigen
                    Senior Member
                    • May 2009
                    • 1558

                    Originally posted by UMDiaspora.org View Post
                    Again Pelister's BS. Where has UMD tried to silence many good Macedonians who believe they are descendants of the ancient Macedonians?
                    IMO, the following article clearly supports that summation:

                    Од Обединетата македонска дијаспора велат дека најавената посета на Бакојани не е за изненадување. Очекуваат таа да присуствува на свечениот банкет што секоја година на крајот од март го организира американскиот претседател во чест на грчкиот ден на независноста. На прослава се покануваат по околу 250 највлијателни Грци во Америка. Македонците [OMDovcite] велат дека до тогаш имаат време да се подготват за лобирање, но порачуваат да се внимава со провокациите од македонска страна.

                    So, UMDovci consider Macedonia and Macedonians promoting and celebrating their ancient heritage as a PROVOCATION to HellAss. That is the message coming through and is no different to Frchkovski, Crvenkovski, and the rest of the anti-Macedonian clique in RoM.

                    Како пример ја даваат антимакедонската резолуција која Грците се обидуваат да ја протнат во Конгресот од 94-тата година. Она што загрижува е што со текот на времето таа добива се поголем број на поддржувачи.
                    „Повеќето конгресмени ја поддржаа таа резолуција поради тоа што се преименува аеродромот “Александар Македонски“.
                    This, IME, is a CLEAR anti-Macedonian slant - No Ifs, and No Buts! FYI, they did NOT rename the "Petrovec Airport" to "Aleksandar Makedonski/Alexander III of Macedon Airport"! It is was renamed "Aleksandar Veliki/Alexander the Great Airport" (a very internationalist name).

                    Мислам, аргументите беа на страна на Грците и ги искористија многу добро,
                    So, Meto thinks HellAss had the "argumentite" (I guess facts) on her side? That is a strange position for a "representative" of the "Macedonian Diaspora" to take, wouldn't you say?

                    така што треба малку и претпазливи да бидеме со такви потези. Нели имаше и пред Букурешт Премиерот постави цвеќе на гробот на Гоце Делчев и на тој гроб имало мапа на Голема Македонија. Тоа многу го искористија Грците во Америка и добија повеќе поддршка од сенаторите и конгресмените поради тоа„ , изјави Методија Колоски, претседател на Обединетата македонска дијаспора.
                    How spineless and shameful to so misrepresent the true feelings of the Macedonians and Macedonian Diaspora in particular! The real feelings of the Macedonian Diaspora are espoused by the words of the very popular patriotic song "Edna misla imame" - Makedonija cela da e, Секој да ја знае.....Чеда сме на Александар, Гордост македонска! Since when has it become a criminal offence for Macedonians to display a map of their ethno-historic Fatherland, their whole native homeland?

                    Тврдењата дека Македонија спроведува националистичка пропаганда со територијални претензии кон Грција, Бакојани минатата година пред сите членови на Комисијата за надворешна политика на Сенатот го аргументирала со фотографијата со Премиерот пред картата на голема Македонија.

                    IMO, if you are unable to stand up to cheap Greek propaganda, you should seriously consider resigning. You appear to be working against Macedonian national interests and not for them.

                    -------------
                    This is the last post on another thread and indicates evasion on Meto's (IME, UMD is nothing more than MK and his cheering squad of American adolescent puppets/muppets) part.

                    Comment

                    • Buktop
                      Member
                      • Oct 2009
                      • 934

                      Originally posted by Phoenix View Post
                      Buktop, you lack honesty to the cause because of your unqustioning friendship with Koloski. It may be an admirable quality to defend a close pal at all costs but your defence goes beyond the typical relationship of a mutual friendship, in this case the costs are astronomically much higher.

                      Koloski has made many unfortunate statements and the direction where he leads his organization could have serious ramifications for the wider Macedonian community, you prefer to act as his apologist rather than risk your close relationship with him, that's being dishonest to yourself and the interests of the broader Macedonian community.
                      Now you are yet again making unfounded assumptions which reveals more about yourself than it does about me.

                      I worked with Meto at MOYANA 6 years ago, from then to about 2 months ago I had not spoken with him. I never said we were best friends or that we both hang out. From what I could see when I worked with him is that he is very devoted and professional in his passion for Macedonia.

                      I respect the fact that you guys don't agree with the statements he made, but to completely undermine everything that UMD and Meto have achieved and will achieve based on a few statements. These discussions on his previous statements have achieved their goal in conveying the grievances of the Diaspora, and I feel that UMD and it's board members will learn from their mistakes. To continually attack Meto, UMD and myself for supporting UMD, with no intention of being constructive shows me that you allow your prejudices to take precedence over the general welfare of Macedonians and Macedonian issues. Your blind hatred is detrimental to the forum and the cause.


                      Originally posted by Vangelovski
                      Its also being dishonest with Meto and leading him to believe that what he's doing has the support of the wider community.
                      I guess you missed my suggestion of polling the diaspora to generate policies. You also let your prejudices blind you Vangelovski, rather than staying with UMD and helping from the inside you let your pride take hold of your judgment and the overall cause has suffered.
                      "I'm happy to answer any question and I don't hide from that"

                      Never once say you walk upon your final way
                      though skies of steel obscure the blue of day.
                      Our long awaited hour will draw near
                      and our footsteps will thunder - We are Here!

                      Comment

                      • Soldier of Macedon
                        Senior Member
                        • Sep 2008
                        • 13670

                        ...........така што треба малку и претпазливи да бидеме со такви потези. Нели имаше и пред Букурешт Премиерот постави цвеќе на гробот на Гоце Делчев и на тој гроб имало мапа на Голема Македонија. Тоа многу го искористија Грците во Америка и добија повеќе поддршка од сенаторите и конгресмените поради тоа„ , изјави Методија Колоски, претседател на Обединетата македонска дијаспора.
                        Another pathetic and weak statement, you should be ashamed of yourself Meto, not the Macedonians who wish to honour their fallen heroes from the past.
                        In the name of the blood and the sun, the dagger and the gun, Christ protect this soldier, a lion and a Macedonian.

                        Comment

                        • Phoenix
                          Senior Member
                          • Dec 2008
                          • 4671

                          Just a few 'suggestions' for the good folk at UMD...and a couple of factual 'corrections' if you will...

                          At the Bucharest Summit in April 2008, NATO affirmed that Macedonia would become a fully fledged member of the alliance once its bilateral name dispute with Greece is resolved. Nearly two years later, Greece continues to block Macedonia's NATO membership and has extended its obstructionism to Skopje's ambitions to accede to the European Union, despite widespread support in the region and from the broader Euro-Atlantic community.

                          The Adriatic-3 countries--Albania, Croatia, and Macedonia--have successfully completed their Membership Action Plans, and as a result, Albania and Croatia have taken their seat at the alliance's table. It is well past time for Macedonia to join them. The United States must work with Macedonia's allies within NATO to push their accession up the agenda and pressure Greece to abide by NATO's long-standing precedent that one country does not block another's membership on a purely bilateral matter.
                          Adriatic Charter

                          Use the correct terminology, leave “Adriatic-3” and “A-3” to diplomatic shorthand and other jargon

                          Greek Obstructionism

                          Despite the fact that more than 120 countries have recognized Macedonia by its constitutional name, Greece asserts that the Republic of Macedonia gives the nation a territorial claim over Greece's northern region of the same name.[1] Under Article 10 of the North Atlantic Treaty, all decisions on NATO enlargement must be made by unanimous consent, so Greek opposition alone is enough to block Macedonia's entry to NATO. However, bilateral disputes have traditionally been resolved outside of the alliance (such as Slovenia's border dispute with Croatia) so that one member alone does not block the consensus decisions of the others.
                          This tactic of obstructionism by the Greek side isn’t isolated within the current dispute that Greece has with the Republic of Macedonia. It has festered at EU level against the Republic of Macedonia and it has been used previously and currently against Turkey which has then resulted in a tit-for-tat reprisal by the Turkish side against Cyprus and their ambitions to join NATO.

                          Greece’s actions need to be highlighted that are specific to the Republic of Macedonia and in the more general but equally frustrating examples of Greece abusing its veto right on other aspirant countries, in different Euro-Atlantic organizations but who are linked by the same concepts.

                          Greece undoubtedly has the upper hand, unashamedly wielding its veto power over Macedonia's accession despite a 1995 interim accord between the two nations agreeing not to do so. Instead of using its power to advance the stability of the transatlantic alliance, Greece is abusing its dominant position to advance its own narrow aims, which will invariably impact regional security.
                          There should also be reference to the 2003 ‘Thessaloniki Declaration’, confirming that the future of the Western Balkans lies with the European Union and by extension of this to other Euro-Atlantic structures such as NATO. Today what is ‘declared’ at a EU summit can’t be viewed in total isolation. It has to be respected in a holistic fashion and how those ‘declarations’ are inextricably linked to the policies of the UN, OSCE, Western European Union and NATO itself http://www.stabilitypact.org/reg-con...eclaration.asp

                          Macedonia's patience is not inexhaustible, and it continues to bear the costs of courting NATO without enjoying the full benefits of membership. It will inevitably become costlier politically for Skopje to justify the time and expense of chasing NATO accession as well as its increased commitment to NATO missions such as Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and Iraq. Further, Macedonia--having recently increased its troop commitment to 250--currently has more troops serving under NATO in Afghanistan than does Greece.
                          BiH is no longer a NATO operation. In December 2004, the EU launched a military operation EUFOR – Operation ALTHEA, following NATO’s decision to conclude its SFOR mission.


                          Eleven Macedonian peacekeepers perished in a helicopter crash on their way home after serving in BiH Operation ALTHEA in 2008. That’s a very high cost to pay to an organization that doesn’t respect ones right to self determination.


                          For Operation-ALTHEA, ARM provides 12 personnel. That’s greater than the contributions of Lithuania (1), Luxemburg (1), Estonia (2), Finland (4), France (4), UK (9) and is on par with Albania’s total of 13 troops. http://www.euforbih.org/eufor/index....=145&Itemid=62

                          We have to move away from this idea that what happens at NATO and the EU are mutually exclusive, both organizations are integral cogs of the Euro-Atlantic machinery.

                          Iraq was not a NATO operation


                          The NATO website puts Macedonia’s troop deployment to Afghanistan at a robust 165. This figure represents a larger human contribution than the Greeks (15) but also other NATO members including Estonia (155), Latvia (155), Lithuania (155), Luxembourg (9), Portugal (105) and Slovenia (70). Macedonia’s contribution also exceeds that of some NATO partner countries including Austria (3), Ireland (7), Finland (90) and Azerbaijan (90) as well as current Adriatic Charter members Bosnia and Herzegovina (10) and Montenegro (nil)


                          The Way Forward

                          The U.N.-mediated talks, supporting bilateral negotiations, should continue separately from the issue of Macedonia's accession to NATO. Therefore significant diplomatic pressure will have to be applied to Athens to overcome their opposition.
                          It’s not enough to blame Greece alone, NATO (through its members) has a huge moral obligation to honour its own ‘Strategic Concept’, where there seems to be an abundance of lovely ‘inclusive’ language and an overriding, almost utopian notion of’ fairness’ when clearly the truth is elsewhere.

                          The NATO document, ‘The Alliance’s Strategic Concept’ , approved in April 1999 in Washington is awash with references to “integration”, “accession of new members”, “common values”, “democracy”, “human rights”, “the rule of law” and even “sovereignty” but somehow these words and terms have a different meaning for the Republic of Macedonia, the “common values” of the NATO members seem to be at odds with the “human rights” and “sovereignty” of the Republic of Macedonia, thereby challenging the very concept of “democracy” leaving one to ponder who’s “rule of law” are we working to and at what cost is this “integration” to the “common values” of the Macedonian’s?
                          Official text,Pressrelease,Arms control - Conventional,ArmsControlGeneral,Crisis management ,Nuclear forces


                          Macedonia has a number of powerful advocates within the alliance to push the issue, including Austrian Minister for European and International Affairs Michael Spindelegger, Slovenian Prime Minister Borut Pahor, and NATO Secretary General Anders Fogh Rasmussen. Significantly, the Supreme Allied Commander Europe's political advisor, Ambassador Lawrence Butler, is a former U.S. ambassador to Macedonia. And American leadership on this matter is essential.
                          Austria is not a NATO member so how much meaningful support, that goes beyond the usual outpouring of rhetoric can we realistically expect from Mr Spindelegger ?

                          Slovenia is a minnow and NATO newcomer, it contributes significantly less forces to Afghanistan than Macedonia, although its support is appreciated one needs to question its impact. Slovenia’s past history as rotating EU President has shown that they’re incapable of standing up to the more powerful and vocal members of the EU and their own threats against Croatia have shown that they too are disrespectful of the concepts of “inclusion” when there are self serving agendas that are far more important.

                          On the other hand the Republic of Macedonia enjoys a strong relationship with a very long serving NATO member, Turkey. The Turks are the only NATO member that has insisted to footnote all NATO documents stating it recognizes Macedonia, where the hell are our other so called “powerful advocates” to match this gesture of solidarity with the Republic of Macedonia in this difficult period?

                          Both U.S. Ambassador to NATO Ivo Daalder and President Obama have also been vocal supporters of NATO enlargement. NATO expansion has traditionally enjoyed strong bipartisan support in the United States, and the Obama Administration should rally congressional support for NATO's Open Door Policy, specifically pushing for the accession of Macedonia in time for the 2010 Lisbon Summit at the end of the year. Ambassador Daalder should also use the U.S.'s diplomatic channels in Europe, in concert with his colleagues in Athens, to increase international pressure on Greece to resolve this matter expeditiously.

                          A Fair Solution

                          NATO expansion has been a major success story for the alliance and has played a crucial role in stabilizing and reforming large parts of Europe. Greece was itself brought into the alliance in 1952 on the first wave of enlargement to advance Europe's strategic reach in southern Europe. Macedonia has chosen a Euro-Atlantic path for its future and met its obligations to qualify for future membership, liberalizing its economy and professionalizing its military. It has shown itself to be capable of providing--not just consuming--security and has constitutionally mandated that it has no territorial aspirations against its neighbors.[2] Its membership prospects must finally be advanced before the window of opportunity closes.

                          NATO must send a clear message that it remains open for business and that accession is possible for all free, democratic nations in Europe.
                          NATO needs to be honest to the 65 paragraphs that make up its ‘Strategic Concept,’ anything else is a waste of time for the Republic of Macedonia and an attack on its sovereignty from the very organization entrusted to protect and nurture this and other concepts of democracy.

                          UMD need to be a lot more honest as well and appropriate blame accordingly not selectively...

                          Comment

                          • Vangelovski
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 8531

                            Originally posted by Buktop View Post
                            You also let your prejudices blind you Vangelovski, rather than staying with UMD and helping from the inside you let your pride take hold of your judgment and the overall cause has suffered.
                            ???????? Buktop, make up your mind on whether I was useful to the cause or not. You're flip-flopping is worse than Meto's.
                            If my people who are called by my name will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, I will hear from heaven and will forgive their sins and restore their land. 2 Chronicles 7:14

                            The Revolution was in the minds and hearts of the people; a change in their religious sentiments, of their duties and obligations...This radical change in the principles, opinions, sentiments, and affections of the people was the real American Revolution. John Adams

                            Comment

                            • Phoenix
                              Senior Member
                              • Dec 2008
                              • 4671

                              Originally posted by Vangelovski View Post
                              ???????? Buktop, make up your mind on whether I was useful to the cause or not. You're flip-flopping is worse than Meto's.
                              You're a clown Buktop, not too long ago you were happy that Vangelovski was no longer part of UMD...

                              Comment

                              • Rogi
                                Senior Member
                                • Sep 2008
                                • 2343

                                Excellent post Phoenix and I whole-heartedly agree! NATO itself needs to be made aware of its' own hypocrisy, against it's own declarations, agreements and strategic concepts.


                                On a minor note, the author of the article is Sally McNamara.
                                Sally McNamara is Senior Policy Analyst in European Affairs in the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom, a division of the Kathryn and Shelby Cullom Davis Institute for International Studies, at The Heritage Foundation.

                                Comment

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