Ghost on the throne by James Romm

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  • Mistracona
    Banned
    • Oct 2012
    • 87

    #16
    I'm sorry, makedoche. I don't understand your question. My point is the opposite of what you say, that there was complete linguistic understanding between the ancient Macedonians and the other Greek-speaking peoples. Could you please clarify.

    With respect to the pages reproduced out of context by TrueMacedonian, there are two things to consider: One is that there is disagreement in every aspect of human discourse. Medical doctors, linguists, mathematicians, physicists and even plumbers disagree, so that historians also disagree on certain things is perfectly normal. Second is that ancient writers are not irrefutable. Because a source is ancient does not mean that it is absolutely correct. Herodotus, "The father of history" wrote a lot of absurd things in his books. He is "the father of history" because of his methodology not because of his accuracy. The Greek philosopher Aristotle wrote some trenchant things about human nature and political structures, but all his scientific observations, all of them without exception, were wrong and sometimes silly. What we consider in every field is a compilation of the weight of evidence. It is as true in the understanding of history as it is in everything else.

    In the underlined passage reproduced by TrueMacedonian of the book Alexander the Great, Romm says, the Macedonians and Greeks " were separate and distinct" yet in his other book, Romm says they were "kindred." Which is it? Not, of course, that that is at all remotely the issue. Again, Romm uses the word "ethnic" which had a different meaning in the ancient world of city states than it does today. Unfortunately, i don't have the time to address every underlined passage but I hope I have made my point with greater or lesser success.

    Comment

    • makedonche
      Senior Member
      • Oct 2008
      • 3242

      #17
      Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
      I'm sorry, makedoche. I don't understand your question. My point is the opposite of what you say, that there was complete linguistic understanding between the ancient Macedonians and the other Greek-speaking peoples. Could you please clarify.
      The question in simlfied format is " what laguage did Alexander the Great speak in an adress to the Greek council/congress, that the Greeks did not understand", fairly simple if you know your history.
      With respect to the pages reproduced out of context by TrueMacedonian, there are two things to consider: One is that there is disagreement in every aspect of human discourse. Medical doctors, linguists, mathematicians, physicists and even plumbers disagree, so that historians also disagree on certain things is perfectly normal. Second is that ancient writers are not irrefutable. Because a source is ancient does not mean that it is absolutely correct. Herodotus, "The father of history" wrote a lot of absurd things in his books. He is "the father of history" because of his methodology not because of his accuracy. So it is quite likely heredotus wrote in a favourable manner towards greeks and he may well have provided distorted opinions/research?
      The Greek philosopher Aristotle wrote some trenchant things about human nature and political structures, but all his scientific observations, all of them without exception, were wrong and sometimes silly. What we consider in every field is a compilation of the weight of evidence. It is as true in the understanding of history as it is in everything else.
      The Macedonian philosopher Aristotle, spoke both languages I refer to.

      In the underlined passage reproduced by TrueMacedonian of the book Alexander the Great, Romm says, the Macedonians and Greeks " were separate and distinct" yet in his other book, Romm says they were "kindred." You keep leaving out the "foreign" part of the statement, conveniently or foolishly - I know what I think.
      Which is it? Not, of course, that that is at all remotely the issue. Again, Romm uses the word "ethnic" which had a different meaning in the ancient world of city states than it does today. Unfortunately, i don't have the time to address every underlined passage but I hope I have made my point with greater or lesser success.
      No - exactly what is your point?
      On Delchev's sarcophagus you can read the following inscription: "We swear the future generations to bury these sacred bones in the capital of Independent Macedonia. August 1923 Illinden"

      Comment

      • Mistracona
        Banned
        • Oct 2012
        • 87

        #18
        1) I do not know of any address that Alexander made to any Greek "congress" (sic) that the Greeks "did not understand." Please describe it to me.

        2.) My example of Herodotus is to show that ancient text can be wrong.

        3.) Could you please offer any text or any evidence to show that Aristotle spoke a language other than Greek or that a Macedonian language separate from Greek even existed much less was used. If, for the sake of argument, such a language did exist, what is its connection to modern Macedonian which belongs to the Slavic family of languages (Cited University of Toronto and many others). Thank you.

        4) Again, lets assume for the sake of argument that Romm actually meant "foreign race" in the contemporary sense (although in the contemporary sense the Greeks, Macedonians, Romans etc were not a separate "race." They were all caucasians). We are still left with the dilemma that Romm calls the two people a "foreign race" and a "kindred people." They are oxymorons. Both cannnot be correct. Which is it?

        Lastly, in the ancient Greek world, the political units were city-states, not nations. "Foreign" (Xenos) could mean a citizen from another city state as well as someone from a different culture. The Greeks divided themselves into separate "races," Dorians, ionians, Achaeans and Aeoleans. each was a "foreign" race or tribe or clan to the other. Romm is a human being writing in this case a book of fiction. He is using words as a fiction writer, sometimes with more accuracy and care than other times.

        My point is that the ancient Macedonians were a (mother tongue) Greek-speaking people who belonged to the ancient Greek-speaking world (not the lingua franca world of the Hellenistic age which resulted from Macedonian conquest) and whose history, culture and language were indivisible from the rest of the Greek-speaking world made up of the separate city-states of Sparta, Athens, Thebes and others. The evidence for this fact is abundant. Its contradiction is non-existent to my knowledge, but I am willing to be corrected if you have the evidence - evidence and not just opinion. Is there a text or a body of words from this mysterious non-Greek ancient macedonian language?

        Comment

        • Risto the Great
          Senior Member
          • Sep 2008
          • 15658

          #19
          Mistracona, you sound like some of the internet warriors of the late 1990's. Perhaps you have missed a great deal.

          But I like the fact you cannot identify a Greek nation in ancient times. I can almost identify a Greek nation in modern times so it is nice to see some development on that front. I suggest you do a little more reading here before you start to sound really old.
          Risto the Great
          MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
          "Holding my breath for the revolution."

          Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

          Comment

          • Mistracona
            Banned
            • Oct 2012
            • 87

            #20
            The ancient Macedonians, we have concluded for the sake of argument, were a people of Chinese-Jewish origin entirely separate from the Greeks. However, using the "Rosetta Stone" method of language learning, the ancient Macedonians mastered the Greek language and absorbed Greek culture totally. By the middle of the 6th Cent B.C. (or BCE if one prefers) the ancient Macedonians were so assimilated into the Greek world that they participated in the ancient Olympic games, the games that were sacred to the ancient Greeks and in which only Greeks could take part.

            Comment

            • Bill77
              Senior Member
              • Oct 2009
              • 4545

              #21
              Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
              1) I do not know of any address that Alexander made to any Greek "congress" (sic) that the Greeks "did not understand." Please describe it to me.
              He addressed his Macedonian army in his mother tongue when he felt threatened. The same mother tongue that Alexander questioned wherever Philotas would speak during his (Philotas) trial, which he (Philotas) refused to speak because not everyone will be able to understand him, which provoked Alexander to respond, that Philota hates his mother-tongue. The same mother tongue Alexander the Great, and the rest of the Macedonians spoke as it was the native language of Alexander the Great which was not understood by the ancient Greeks. The same mother tongue that Greek commander Ambiance needed a translator (Xennias) sent by Eumenes to negotiate.

              I "could" give you sources.........But hey....i think you made up your mind (in the post below) ancient text could be wrong especially if it favours the Macedonian argument. So why bother with the likes of you

              Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
              2.) My example of Herodotus is to show that ancient text can be wrong.
              Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
              Could you please offer any text or any evidence to show that Aristotle spoke a language other than Greek or that a Macedonian language separate from Greek even existed much less was used.
              All text and evidence would have to derive from ancient sources which apparently can be wrong. So we can't help you. Sorry and please shut the door on your way out.
              http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

              Comment

              • Mistracona
                Banned
                • Oct 2012
                • 87

                #22
                There was no Greek "nation" in ancient times. The concept of "nation" is an 18th and 19th century invention. It is totally an artificial construct in every case without exception. The fascinating thing about the Republic of Macedonia is that we see a people forming a "nation, " taking a centuries old concept and applying its formation in contemporary times. It is, in a way, like watching a new island being formed after a volcanic explosion. Extremely interesting.

                In ancient times, the word "Greece" was a linguistic, cultural and in certain cases a geographical expression. Its political unit was the city-state. Many Greeks today haphazardly use the expression that "Greece" was occupied by the Turks for 4 centuries. This is ahistorical. There was no "Greece" in 1453 when the capital of the Greek-speaking east Roman (the so called "Byzantine") empire fell to the Ottomans. It is correct to say that the Greek-speaking people (or the Greek people meaning the same thing) were under the control of the Ottomans for 4 centuries but not correct to say that "Greece" was occupied by the Turks. "Greece" was never occupied by anyone except the Germans during WWII.

                There is "Greece" and there is "Greece." One is the modern state, the other is the ancient culture and people. Unfortunately, even some historians conflate the two to their confusion. "Greece" the nation state and "the Greek (speaking) people" are two different things with two different histories. The state is barely two hundred years old, the Greek-speaking people stretch back almost four thousand years. The history of both became synonymous, however, from the point of the creation of the modern state. The history of the Greek-speaking people (the "Greeks") stretches from the first Greek-speaking Mycaenians (as verified by Michael Ventris' decipherment of Linear B writing) who descended into the peninsula in the 17th century to the speakers of contemporary demotic living with a great deal of interpersonal animosity and distress in the present Hellenic Republic.

                It is important to add that most people have a Disneyland understanding of the ancient Greek world in knowing only the tremendous cultural achievements of that "race." The ancient Greeks, however, were real flesh and blood human beings with an abundance of negative characteristics and self-defeating vices and faults to go along with their extraordinary accomplishments which are a matter of historical record and tangible artifact.

                Thank you for your comments. I am always eager to learn from those who are more knowledgeable than I am, and I will follow your discussions with an open mind and a keen heart.

                Comment

                • Risto the Great
                  Senior Member
                  • Sep 2008
                  • 15658

                  #23
                  Mistracona, I think I read your last post on the bottom of a postcard from Greece the other day. I had to pay for the postage though so I made it return to sender.
                  Risto the Great
                  MACEDONIA:ANHEDONIA
                  "Holding my breath for the revolution."

                  Hey, I wrote a bestseller. Check it out: www.ren-shen.com

                  Comment

                  • Mistracona
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2012
                    • 87

                    #24
                    Bill77 writes: "All text and evidence would have to derive from ancient sources which apparently can be wrong. So we can't help you. Sorry and please shut the door on your way out."

                    I am intrigued by the censorious obsession that one finds in expat Macedonian sites for "banning" people who hold contrary opinions. I watched the Maknews site wither on the vine as it "banned" everyone whose opinion it didn't like. What was once a site for lively discussions turned into a small circle of contributors who fell into arguing with each other. I see the same thing happening to this site as it reaches its end which is a shame because I enjoy the discussions on ancient history. I do not know of any other sites, aside from the expat Macedonian ones, that are so obsessed with "banning" contributors. It reminds me of the Soviet Russian habit of airbrushing discarded people from official photographs. It is after all, only when we are forced to defend our positions and ideas that we strengthen them and evolve them into a a more complex interpretation. It is reasonable to suspect that it is fear and uncertainty that makes one close his mind to the opinions of others.

                    Comment

                    • Mistracona
                      Banned
                      • Oct 2012
                      • 87

                      #25
                      I have posted in all sincerity, with restraint, serious forethought and moderation. The impatience, slurs and hostility that I have received in return is rather puzzling. It means nothing to me, but do carry on if you find it useful or therapeutic.

                      Shrug...

                      Comment

                      • Bill77
                        Senior Member
                        • Oct 2009
                        • 4545

                        #26
                        ^^^

                        What are you talking about???
                        Who said anything about ban. I suggested you leave on your own accord and don't waist anyone's time. Just shut the door respectfully on your way out (thats if you want to leave your choice) as i don't like draft.

                        Or are you now diverting and playing the victim card after not having a comeback to the reply to your question? typical.

                        Please do leave, you are no "Fille" of mine oooooops i spoke a Greek word I must now be a Greek
                        http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                        Comment

                        • Mistracona
                          Banned
                          • Oct 2012
                          • 87

                          #27
                          The Greeks are not your problem. Your problem, the threat to your nation, is much closer to home and lies within it. The Greeks are your natural allies, but you don't want to see it. "Have it your way" then as that great philosopher Ronald McDonald says.

                          Comment

                          • Bill77
                            Senior Member
                            • Oct 2009
                            • 4545

                            #28
                            Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
                            The Greeks are not your problem. Your problem, the threat to your nation, is much closer to home and lies within it.
                            I agree, Greeks are no problem at all. Our current government with this willing to negotiate iis our biggest threat.

                            Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
                            The Greeks are your natural allies, but you don't want to see it.
                            pffft this is some funny shit man. lol Since ancient times the Greeks have been against the Macedonians and today nothing has changed except the labellings.

                            And nothing will change with Greek mentality till the day Christ comes back..... and even then you will bother him bitching about us.

                            Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
                            "Have it your way" then as that great philosopher Ronald McDonald says.
                            “We're managing to get by. We're lucky enough. We've got transportation. We can go get something. A lot of these folks can't. They're just stuck in.” as the indeed great philosopher Ronald McDonald also said.

                            And i wander at the time, if he was taking the piss out of Greece's economy and all those public transport strikes and all going on.
                            http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=120873#post120873

                            Comment

                            • Tomche Makedonche
                              Senior Member
                              • Oct 2011
                              • 1123

                              #29
                              Originally posted by Mistracona View Post
                              The Greeks are not your problem. Your problem, the threat to your nation, is much closer to home and lies within it
                              Quite right, hence the reason why slowly more and more of us are becoming aware that engaging in frivolous discussion with the likes of you, will achieve nothing other than to temporarily distract ourselves from focusing on our priorities.

                              I’m sure you would agree that the above is also true if applied to your republic’s current scenario, but then again, according to you, “there is Greece and there is Greece”, hence I understand your current confusion on where you should actually be directing your efforts.
                              “There’s a time when the operation of the machine becomes so odious, makes you so sick at heart, that you can’t take part, you can’t even passively take part, and you’ve got to put your bodies upon the gears and upon the wheels, upon the levers, upon all the apparatus and you’ve got to make it stop, and you’ve got to indicate to the people who run it, to the people who own it, that unless you’re free, the machine will be prevented from working at all” - Mario Savio

                              Comment

                              • Mistracona
                                Banned
                                • Oct 2012
                                • 87

                                #30
                                Bill77 writes: "pffft this is some funny shit man. lol Since ancient times the Greeks have been against the Macedonians and today nothing has changed except the labellings."

                                No credible historian has ever connected the modern Slavic-speaking nation of Macedonia with the ancient world, neither linguistically, culturally or geographically. If you have any proof or evidence to the contrary please post it. It will be greatly appreciated by many. Macedonia (the real one) was, as we said, an intrinsic and essential part of the Greek-speaking world and today, some two million Greeks also identify themselves as "Macedonian" so there is no animus to be had, far from it. In Greece, "Macedonian" is another word for "Greek." Similarly, I presume that in Bulgaria, "Macedonian" is another word for "Bulgarian" so you might begin to see the problem.

                                You are right that the Gruevski government is your greatest threat. The present government in Skopje has antagonised and made enemies of all of Macedonia's neighbours: Greece, Bulgaria, Serbia and Albania. Who are your allies? Oh, yes, I forgot, The Turks are, aren't they? You're in safe hands there, alright. Good luck with that.

                                Macedonia has yet to join the community of nations in the EU or in the Atlantic alliance. More, the present government has created in Skopje what a Sacramento, California newspaper called "The capital of Kitsch" by spending tens of millions of euros erecting giant plastic statues and follies of figures and buildings belonging to other cultures. In every country with roots in the ancient world, in Greece, in France, in Italy in Turkey and others, the monuments and their remnants are real, only in Skopje is there a kitschy Disneyland of phoniness. No, wait a moment, there is another place full of phoney statues and buildings: Las Vegas, Nevada where you can visit "Caesar's Palace" or "The Colosseum" or "The Eiffel Tower" or "The Pyramids of Egypt."

                                Of course, in the Foreign Ministry building of Skopje, you can see giant statues of those great Macedonians, Winston Churchill and Abraham Lincoln. Gruevski's government will have a lot to answer for to the mortified future generations of Macedonia.

                                It is not immediately obvious why you and others see the present (and transitory) decline of the Greek economy as a celebration and boon for Macedonia. It is nothing more than Schadenfreude and, unfortunately, you cannot take Schadenfreude to the bank. But I hope that works out for you as well.

                                I relish the obsession (possibly a Freudian fetish) with Greece that one finds on these expat Macedonian sites. Greece is the largest country in the world; more populous than China and more powerful than the United States. Greece is the only thing standing between the Great Macedonian Nation and its return to imperial glory and the resurrection of your heroic ancestors (with the Greek names), so I can understand why it occupies so much of you time, your energy and your spleen. Good luck with that, and I hope that, too, works out for you.

                                Amitie,

                                M.

                                P.S. Is the door still, open, Bill?

                                Comment

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