Macedonian Truth Forum

Macedonian Truth Forum (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/index.php)
-   News and Politics (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
-   -   United Macedonia Diaspora (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=2422)

Pelister 09-24-2008 09:14 PM

United Macedonia Diaspora
 
I don't like UMD's politics, I've made no secret of that.

A number of things need to be raised about their politics, and where they stand in relation to Macedonian politics.

Some of their members supported a name change for NATO membership, even though the negotations were so heavily one sided in favor of the Greeks, who also have a history of negating the Macedonian identity (they were indifferent to it).

The reason why I say this is because the same guy who wanted Macedonia to change her name (without a referendum ...etc ... without thinking these issues through), and who believes that the Macedonian nationality, could be in historical terms Greek, Albanian, or Bulgarian ...etc, (Coolski, who I know some people like), is also a high ranking member of UMD. Not the kind of people in my opinion you want to have falsely representing themselves as the voice of the Macedonian diaspora, now is it?

Now the reason why I make that last point is becuase at the end of the day they are just a Club. [B]They represent their membership only. They do not represent the Macedonian people living in the diaspora, and any claims that they do is misleading to say the very least.[/B] So, I'd be interested to know what kind of representations they have been making to the Macedonian politicians? I hope some of them can explain this to me. Most Macedonians in the diaspora would have no idea who they are, or what they stand for. They're politics is in my opinion, shady, to say the least.

These are my grievances with UMD/.

Pelister

Rogi 09-24-2008 09:49 PM

Pelister, I think you have a problem with your own misinterpretations.

Firstly, you're way off about Coolski and you've clearly misunderstood his posts on this forum.

Secondly, Coolski never ever suggested a name change for Macedonia and has never held that position within UMD.

Finally, UMD as an organisation will never, ever accept such a position. The purpose of UMD's existence is not to lobby for Macedonia, but rather to further the Macedonian cause.

Perhaps you could tell us what you feel is shady, so that we can clear things up for you - rather than continue on making empty accusations. But I do hope that you can understand what moderate politics is, even if the goals may not be moderate.

Pelister 09-24-2008 11:35 PM

[QUOTE=Rogi;3349]Pelister, I think you have a problem with your own misinterpretations.

Firstly, you're way off about Coolski and you've clearly misunderstood his posts on this forum.

Secondly, Coolski never ever suggested a name change for Macedonia and has never held that position within UMD.

[B]Finally, UMD as an organisation will never, ever accept such a position[/B]. The purpose of UMD's existence is not to lobby for Macedonia, but rather to further the Macedonian cause.

Perhaps you could tell us what you feel is shady, so that we can clear things up for you - rather than continue on making empty accusations. But I do hope that you can understand what moderate politics is, even if the goals may not be moderate.[/QUOTE]


Roqi,

I have always been open and honest about my position regarding Macedonia.

It is no secret I have a number of grievances with Coolski's principles.

He did suggest changing the name to me, which is part of the reason I am here and not there.

I will just quickly raise a few issues. He has misrepresented what people on this forum mean when they say "Macedonia for the Macedonians", and further suggested that it is usually meant in a racist way (he has issues with racists). The evidence on this forum doesn't support that.

Coolski is also misrepresenting the Macedonian Nationality, in principle. He argues that the term Macedonia, can be applied in two ways, one, it can mean an ethnic group, and two, it can mean someone who "feels" Macedonian, Nationality, which could include any ethnic group. I agree that as an abstract concept it could. Historically, I cannot. [I]The emergence and development of the Macedonian Nationality in bound to the Macedonian ethnic group.[/I] Coolski is in my opinion misrepresenting the Macedonian Nationality, [I]in historical terms[/I], by taking something in the Krushevo manifesto out of context.

Now, I should not assume that Coolski's personal point of view, is necessarily the position held by UMD.

Having said that, you ought to undestand that my point of view could have some merit, and that the personal points of view of some members of UMD, could also represent the position of UMD, although evidently not in official circles.

You are saying to me that UMD will never accept a position that compromises Macedonia's identity.

The Greek State is trying to get the Macedonians to reject their own Nationality, i.e., to remove themselves in historical terms to any part they play in their own liberation, as Macedonians !

I am saying that a high ranking member of UMD, is taking exactly this position, on civic principle.

So, naturally I have problems with that Clubs position regarding the Macedonian Nationality.

Risto the Great 12-01-2008 06:00 PM

Political correctness and the UMD
 
I am starting to feel the UMD has painted itself into a corner with not wanting to tread on any toes in Macedonia in order to achieve continued relevance with the various political parties who may in time come to rule.

The actions going on in Macedonia presently with the Albanians is utterly intolerable and the Government appears to endorse these actions by its inactivity.

This is precisely the time when the Diaspora needs to tell the Macedonian Government and the people of Macedonia what is unacceptable. A positive revolution is required in Macedonia and external catalysts can often be employed to start the process.

This political correctness is something we can employ when our future is assured. This is not the case presently. Even my local Macedonian community has moments of "political correctness" in advising many of its members that this (MacedonianTruth) forum exhibits moments of blatant "nationalism".

Not happy!

Orovnichanec 12-01-2008 09:20 PM

In some aspects political correctness is called for, but I see it used way to often, and the Macedonian government is guilty of overuse of political correctness, and to the extent so is UMD.

You have to look at other examples, you don't see the Greek or Albanian organizations playing the political correctness game so neither should the UMD.

Pelister 12-04-2008 12:18 AM

I don't like UMd - shameless self promoters, who have decieved the good will of Macedonians by creating a "petition" in order to falsely use those names as the "representative base" of UMd, when UMd in fact only represents its members.

They support the negotiation process - and they support the position that Greeks are historically speaking Macedonians too. Basically the negotiations for UMd are legitimate.

[B]The view of UMd is that Macedonia should enter NATO under the acronym FYROM[/B]. This is also the position of the current Macedonian government which is a betrayal.

Thirdly, members of UMd have an agenda to misrepresent the Macedonian nationality, in historical terms.

Rogi 12-04-2008 08:40 AM

Pelister, please, get the basics right first. UMD does not support the negotiations.

After you have the basics about UMD's position right, then, feel free to criticise and attack if you disagree. But please, do not slander based on misrepresentation and falsification. It really does nobody any good.

UMD's poltiical correctness, which I hate but do understand, is the only reason why politicians in the US are willing to sit down with UMD.

The World Macedonian Congress made all their views and positions in public. That was great and it means we all know we can support the WMC because it holds the right views and positions for the Macedonian cause. However, because of that the WMC was then labelled as 'hardline' and 'nationalistic' and whatnot and was unfortunately subsequently sidelined in all political spheres, in Macedonia and outside of Macedonia.

So UMD is trying a different approach, and I guess it means having to wriggle around for a while until you are in those inner circles where you then have some cards to play. That doesn't mean the same goals and ideals are not held by everyone in UMD, it just means that your hiding your cards and holding them close.

Let's be open here... we don't have money (and the Greeks just seem to throw that around everywhere we go) to support politicians, we don't have any real friends in politics (based on ideology and understanding the Macedonian cause), in fact we don't have much at all, other than the hope of good will by those whose support we seek.

Every time UMD makes a statement that the Greeks can use for its 'nationalistic' or 'hard-line' approach, the Greeks use it, they go to the very politicians who's good will we rely on, then they make their lives difficult for dealing with UMD. That means the good will with the politician is then gone - the politicians just don't feel its worth fighting for us and causing any hassle for themselves, there's nothing in it for them. We don't have anything to offer. That's the sad reality and you would be surprised (and annoyed) at how many times we have had to go up and down the same paths because of this.

If we are not politically correct right now, then we don't really exist on any level that matters, because we lose access to the people whose support we need in order to build what we are trying to build.


All that said, however, If you're talking about political correctness in terms of what is happening inside Macedonia, you're damn right. There need to be some serious anti Government releases coming out from UMD to help ground the Government and not let it get ahead of itself and move away from the right path for the Macedonian cause (as it is with allowing a terrorist museum in Macedonia and so on).

Risto the Great 12-04-2008 02:33 PM

[QUOTE=Rogi;5577]All that said, however, If you're talking about political correctness in terms of what is happening inside Macedonia, you're damn right. There need to be some serious anti Government releases coming out from UMD to help ground the Government and not let it get ahead of itself and move away from the right path for the Macedonian cause (as it is with allowing a terrorist museum in Macedonia and so on).[/QUOTE]

Agreed. Lines of communication need to remain open. But does the Government care what the Diaspora has to say anyway? Particularly when the UMD is so damn nice about everything.

Now if the UMD was the public face of a more hardline national front, I would be much happier. By not commenting on this disgraceful stuff with the Albanians, it accepts it as much as the Government does.

Soldier of Macedon 12-04-2008 05:18 PM

As much as I don't want to gt involved in this UMD conversation, I tend to agree with Risto's last comment. But there is a way also which doesn't result in endless dialogue which ends in disputes among Macedonians.

Risto the Great 12-29-2008 07:58 PM

United Macedonian Diaspora
 
I received the following text in an email from the UMD listing its achievements for the 2008 year:
[QUOTE]
Dear Friend,

There are three kinds of people: those who make things happen; those who watch things happen; and those who wonder what happened. The United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) makes things happen and our efforts affect Macedonians around the world. Your help has enabled UMD to accomplish even more on your behalf and for Macedonia. We wholeheartedly thank you for your important support.

January saw the delivery of gloves, scarves, and hats to orphans in Skopje, milk to infants in Bitola, and food to the homeless in Skopje. UMD commemorated the victims of the International Holocaust and urged Bulgaria to offer an apology and compensation to the families of Macedonian Jews who suffered under Bulgaria's cooperation with Nazi Germany.

In February, UMD urged Secretary Rice to reiterate U.S. recognition of Macedonia's constitutional name, support for Macedonia's admission to NATO, and the U.S. position that the 'name dispute' between Greece and Macedonia is not relevant to Macedonia's NATO bid. During a visit of Greece's Foreign Minister to Washington, D.C., UMD published an advertisement in the Washington Post's Express, a statement that Macedonians have a right to exist and that Greece seeks to distract the world from the continuing mistreatment of ethnic Macedonians in Greece.

In March, UMD advertisements appeared in the Macedonian dailies Dnevnik, Utrinski Vesnik, and Vecer that stressed the Diaspora's opposition to a change in Macedonia's name. A UMD letter-writing campaign to the leaders of all NATO states urged support of Macedonia's NATO bid and resulted in seven million letters in a week from Macedonians and supporters of Macedonia throughout the world.

Greece's veto in April of Macedonia's bid for entry into NATO triggered UMD opinion pieces in the Washington Times, Dnevnik, and the Hill's Congress Blog. Greek acts of intimidation against Macedonia and Macedonians rose dramatically:


Macedonian tourists in Greece were beaten.
Macedonian exports were blocked from entering Greece.
Macedonian airliners were barred from Greek airspace.
Ethnic Macedonians in Greece also were attacked.

UMD closely followed these events and apprised the State Department and Congress. In Australia, the Ambassador of Hungary indicated that the Greek veto had humiliated Hungary and all the other NATO members. Later in the month, UMD hosted a gathering at St. Jovan the Baptist Macedonian Orthodox Church in Tampa, Florida.

May saw UMD become the first Macedonian Diaspora organization to open an office in Washington, D.C. A new fellowship program was started that will bring Macedonian university-level students to Washington, D.C. as interns for UMD. The interns will be exposed to policymaking, networking, and functioning in a non-governmental environment. UMD sponsored the first Macedonian Film Festival taking place in London organized by the Krug Cultural Group.

While Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki's was in the U.S., in May, a Declaration of Strategic Partnership and Collaboration with the U.S was signed. In UMD's meeting with the Foreign Minister, we praised these excellent efforts on the nation's behalf. That meeting was followed by one with Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs, Daniel Fried, on bi-lateral relations and Macedonia's prospects for Euro-Atlantic integration. UMD helped coordinate a protest of 20,000 people in Melbourne on May 24 against Australia's failure to recognize Macedonia's name. Subsequently, Macedonia ended visa requirements for Australians-a position often urged by UMD. UMD condemned Bulgaria's frequent harassment of OMO Ilinden-PIRIN, a political party of ethnic Macedonians in Bulgaria whose registration the Bulgarian courts continue to deny.

By June, UMD had announced The Fund for Macedonian Children-a partnership with the Splash of Hope and the Macedonian Mission for Humanity-to create humanitarian programs for Macedonian youth. Congressman K. Michael Conway withdrew his support of House Resolution 356, an anti-Macedonian resolution put forward by the Greek-American lobby, thanks to UMD's educational advocacy. In commemorating World Refugee Day, UMD called upon Greece to acknowledge its inhumane treatment of Macedonians expelled since 1944 and to repeal those Greek laws intended to repatriate and return confiscated property solely to those who are Greeks "by genus."

In July, UMD secured a matching grant from the Turkish Coalition of America in the amount of $150,000. UMD needs to raise $50,000 each year for a three year period and TCA will match this amount each year for three years, thus a total of $300,000. On July 31st, a UMD delegation met with Macedonia's President, Prime Minister and Foreign Minister in Skopje. UMD was able to reiterate its unwavering position against any negotiations over Macedonia's name, or any considerations of changing the name of the Republic of Macedonia. Unfortunately, Ambassador-designate, Philip T. Reeker's confirmation was blocked by Senators Olympia Snowe of Maine and Robert Menendez of New Jersey, both supporters of the Greek-American lobby. UMD's letter-writing campaign was carried in The Star Ledger newspaper in New Jersey and squarely addressed Senator Menendez's actions. By August, both Senators lifted their hold on Ambassador Reeker's confirmation.

Macedonia's name and human rights in Southeast Europe dominated UMD's efforts in August. UMD visited over 350 congressional offices informing representatives on Macedonian issues. In Melbourne, UMD attended the Ilinden Celebrations and discussed strengthening Australian-Macedonian relations with The Honorable Harry Jenkins, the Speaker of Australia's Parliament.

Also in August, UMD established a Planning Committee for the First UMD Global Conference to be held on June 11, 12 and 13, 2009 at the Crystal Gateway Marriott in Arlington, Virginia (Click HERE to see the hotel). We will launch a conference website very soon with more information. Meanwhile, stay up to date at [url]www.umdiaspora.org[/url]. Please save the date, as we need your help to launch a great, new Macedonian tradition. UMD held a meeting during the 34th American Canadian-Macedonian Orthodox Diocese Convention at St. Nikola Macedonian Orthodox Church in Totowa, New Jersey, where over 300 people heard and discussed the pressing issues facing Macedonians in North America and the world.

A September Boat Cruise on the Potomac River allowed UMD to commemorate 17 years of Macedonian independence. Ambassadors Philip Reeker and Zoran Jolevski welcomed the Washington, D.C. Macedonian-American community's celebration of 17 years of Macedonian independence. UMD met Ambassador Reeker during September and discussed U.S. investment in Macedonia. UMD also met with Prime Minister Gruevski in New Jersey and with President Crvenkovski at the UN and discussed Macedonia's relations with Greece and UMD concerns over the 'name dispute.' Later that month, UMD congratulated outgoing President of the UN General Assembly, Srgjan Kerim, on his achievements.

On October 2, UMD sponsored an international conference, New Allies and the New U.S. Administration: Priorities for U.S.-CEE Relations, at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington, D.C. The conference allowed UMD to inform the 100 plus attendees, including representatives from the two U.S. presidential campaigns, diplomatic community, regional experts, analysts, business representatives, scholars, and the media, about Macedonian issues. Later, at the Friends of Macedonia Forum at the Macedonian Embassy in Washington, D.C., UMD helped strengthen its ties with other Macedonian-American organizations.

Later in October, UMD met to discuss U.S.-Macedonian relations with a staunch supporter of the Greek lobby, Senator Robert Menendez. This was a first! On October 24, at the invitation of the Bush Administration, UMD attended a signing ceremony to witness the NATO Accession Protocols for Albania and Croatia at the White House.

UMD sent a congratulatory letter to President-elect Barack Obama in November on his historic victory and pledged its strong support in promoting the relationship between the U.S. and Macedonia. UMD published an op-ed in the Macedonian daily Dnevnik on the potential impact of an Obama Administration on Macedonia and, later, hosted an event in Toronto on that topic.

December saw UMD commemorate the 60th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights on December 10th. 2008 also marks the 60th Anniversary of the Mass Exodus of Macedonian Child Refugees from Greece during the Greek Civil War. UMD again called upon Greece to acknowledge its tragic human rights record and to allow Macedonian refugees to return to their homeland and reconnect with their roots. The Fund for Macedonian Children launched a fundraising campaign for blankets - a key necessity in orphanages, as well as children's clinics and hospitals throughout Macedonia. The spirit of voluntarism has eliminated any administrative costs connected to UMD charity campaigns, so every dollar donated goes straight to the purchase of blankets. Our goal is to invest in Macedonia's economy, involve the local community, and join all our efforts worldwide, so as to maximize our efforts locally in Macedonia!

"Impact" is the operative word at UMD. To make a continuing impact, UMD needs your participation and support. UMD cannot implement its many activities in support of Macedonia without you. In these challenging times, we need your support like never before.

As we reflect on this holiday season, we write to say Thank You for your support and your good wishes for our continued success. We also ask that you too reflect on the year just ending and remember our brothers and sisters around the world. Macedonians must care for one another and work together to advance our community's welfare and interests. United, We Can!

We wish you and your family a joyous Christmas and a very happy New Year!

Sincerely,

UMD Board of Directors
Metodija A. Koloski, President
Aleksandar Mitreski, Vice President
Michael Sarafin, Secretary
Denis Manevski, Treasurer
Ordan Andreevski, Director, Australian Operations
Boban Jovanovski
Igor Zvezdakoski
Aleksandra Trpkovska
Stojan Nikolov[/QUOTE]

It looks like it was a productive year.
I am somewhat miffed by the UMD's approach to self-marketing on the Maknews forum. They had been very willing to post matters for promotion of themselves and yet often ducked and weaved when it came to discussing issues in detail. I found it unhealthy and it left a bad taste in my mouth.

I have noticed that Meto has decided never to post on Maknews again in the following thread:
[url]http://www.maknews.com/forum/general-discussions/ask-the-umd-t13224.html[/url]

Surprisingly, most of RMK's questions were not unreasonable.

So why have I posted this? I just think if you going to commit to a very direct approach of self-promotion in public forums, then you should able to withstand and address the scrutiny that will ensue.

Here is the Mission for the United Macedonian Diaspora
[QUOTE]
Mission

United Macedonian Diaspora (UMD) is an international non-governmental organization addressing the interests and needs of Macedonians and Macedonian communities throughout the world.

UMD's main goals are to foster unity among Macedonian people, and advance their cause. We work to promote our historical, spiritual and cultural heritage while advancing the Macedonian tradition within the framework of various advocacy, educational, and charitable programs.

With headquarters in Washington, D.C., UMD has representatives serving Macedonian communities around the world, including Brussels, Canberra, London, Melbourne, New York, Paris, Stuttgart, Sydney, and Toronto.

Objectives

* Safeguard the rights of Macedonians around the world
* Strengthen the unity among the Macedonian Diaspora
* Act with and on behalf of Macedonian communities before governmental and international bodies
* Cooperate with the world community, promoting the universal ideas of peace, freedom, self-determination, and equality

Policy Issues

* Advance Macedonian interests through educational advocacy, charitable efforts, and social and cultural events
* Support the Republic of Macedonia's constitutional name
* Defend the Macedonian ethnic identity
* Support the human rights of Macedonians in Albania, Bulgaria, Greece, and Serbia
* Improve relations among Macedonia and the United States, Canada, Australia, and support accession into NATO and the EU


UMD recognizes that the success and well-being of the Macedonian communities worldwide is the best guarantor for the well-being of Macedonia. [/QUOTE]

Orovnichanec 12-30-2008 12:16 AM

I agree and disagree. The problem is that RMK makes it a personal vendetta on people, and alot of it is because he either misreads something or reads something that he wants to rather then what is actually there. You think RMK actually cared about any of that? I really do not.

I applaud UMD for all the work they have done, and wish more Macedonian organizations appear that are as strong as UMD, because we need them.

Rogi 12-30-2008 01:02 AM

I'm on the maknews forum every day and I am one of the UMD Board Members.

I think I have answered any and every question that gets thrown UMD's way, of course, I answer them in my own view (and in the way that I put my vote on the UMD Board)... why does everyone feel that it has to be Meto who answers the questions? Besides, if Meto were to answer any questions (as the same with me) it would his own view, not the view of UMD.

If anyone had specific questions, it is best to send them to UMD's official email, let it become an internal topic for discussion (if it is not clear-cut) and then UMD will come out with its official response. In fact, I urge everyone to do that, it will just help make everything clearer for everyone (including those of us on the Board, who want to know exactly where everyone stands on every issue).

There are 9 of us on the Board, each of us have an equal say and vote. There are differences in views amongst us, just like all Macedonians, so we try to find a common ground (or we might argue and take it to a vote) but I keep telling people that the best way to get things going is by getting involved and have your say from inside the organisation.

Soldier of Macedon 12-30-2008 01:14 AM

[QUOTE=Krste Misirkov;7372]I agree and disagree. The problem is that RMK makes it a personal vendetta on people, and alot of it is because he either misreads something or reads something that he wants to rather then what is actually there. You think RMK actually cared about any of that? I really do not.

I applaud UMD for all the work they have done, and wish more Macedonian organizations appear that are as strong as UMD, because we need them.[/QUOTE]
From what I have seen KM seems to be correct in his observations, and some things should remain for Macedonian eyes only. Having said that however, there are some interesting points made by RTG that need to be addressed so we can get some clarity where it concerns certain operational elements of the UMD. Whether or not this is the right platform for it I don't know, but clearly there are some issues to be resolved before we get past this tension that only holds back our cause. The clashing of heads is inevitable, but if that is the case then operate independently from each other, that way everybody can do their bit without hindrance to the cause.

More walk and less talk by those that are in the apparent position to make a positive 'difference' and further the Macedonian cause. Rather than persistently pointing out what is wrong, how about some efforts to highlight what and how we should be doing things right, that can be corroborated and followed through effectively.

Risto the Great 12-30-2008 02:26 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;7373]I'm on the maknews forum every day and I am one of the UMD Board Members.

I think I have answered any and every question that gets thrown UMD's way, of course, I answer them in my own view (and in the way that I put my vote on the UMD Board)... why does everyone feel that it has to be Meto who answers the questions? Besides, if Meto were to answer any questions (as the same with me) it would his own view, not the view of UMD. [/QUOTE]
Rogi, I thoroughly believe your (personal) intent is without question. I also appreciate what you are saying about Meto. But if I am promoting my group on a public forum, then I will answer on behalf of my group in the same place. If I deviate from the group's consensus, then I will correct myself and move on. Too many times I saw the "my personal opinion is ... " instead of "we stand for ...".

At this point I should make it clear that I was heavily impressed with many of the UMD's actions over the last 12 months and encouraged many people to join during this time. With quite a degree of success I might add. So I will always support organisations with ideals that are congruent with the betterment of Macedonian issues as they relate to my personal beliefs.

The first time I was miffed with the UMD was when a particularly sensitive issue was planted in Maknews without the ability to post replies. It did not send the right message and thankfully did not happen again.

Admittedly, I have not immersed myself in many of the recent online battles. But I still ask myself, why bother self-promoting in an online forum if you then cannot reply to the participants in an official capacity on behalf of the same organisation? If you are going to do it ... do it all the way! Otherwise, have a couple of links on the main page and let the forums be a place for people to communicate freely.

Sarafot 12-30-2008 04:19 AM

UMD seems to be strong organisation,probebly stronger then WMK,i wonder can UMD help us in Slovenia to? We need strong organisation here to,becouse this here is nothing.:confused:

Jankovska 12-30-2008 05:12 AM

I think they need time and a chance, Rome was not build in one night. This is important stuff, we can not expect everything to happen overnight. However bitching about their work like RMK and Vangelvoski while posting crap all day long is just stupid. If we don't agree with anything and have any suggestions than they have an email and have encouraged everyone to do so. Personal attacks and bitching does not make the UMD sound like a professional org and they should never be put in that position. Macedonians are always good at critics but sometimes they go to far.

Sarafot 12-30-2008 05:31 AM

What is RMK

Jankovska 12-30-2008 07:06 AM

[QUOTE=Sarafot;7403]What is RMK[/QUOTE]

RMK is a member on the maknews forum, which I believe is where all this started.

Pelister 12-30-2008 10:03 PM

UMD's real agenda
 
Don't be fooled by UMD.

Who they claim to be and what they claim to stand for closely resembles the old Bulgarian and Greek organizations who fooled the average Macedonian that they were on our side, and working in the interests of Macedonians.

Take a closer look at UMD.

UMD,

1. Believes the dispute is legitimate
2. Believes Greece has legitimate grievances
3. Believes that Greeks can be Macedonians too
4. UMD Believes the Macedonian leadership MUST CHANGE THE NAME if it is to survive.
5. Meto himself has set out to "revise" Macedonian History. He believes the modern idea of "Macedonian Nationality" includes Greeks, Albanians and others and is trying to prove that this has always been the case [I]historically[/I].
6. UMD "staged" a petition. UMD falsely and deceptively portrays its membership base by referring to the number of signatures on this petition.
7. UMD is a political club and its membership base is TINY. It is NOT the voice of the Macedonian diaspora even though it deceptively claims to be. The Macedonian leadership and politicians and Macedonians everywhere need to be aware of this fact.

Risto the Great 12-30-2008 10:17 PM

[QUOTE=Pelister;7471]
4. UMD Believes the Macedonian leadership MUST CHANGE THE NAME if it is to survive.[/QUOTE]
Why do you get this impression Pelister?
The mission statement I included above and other statements on the UMD website directly contradict your statement above.

Pelister 12-30-2008 11:20 PM

Mission statement is a smokescreen.

They are not interested in FULL recognition - and every point I made about them is dead accurate.

I have it from a reliable source that Meto wants Macedonia in NATO as F.Y.R.O.M - not Republic of Macedonia. So I asked him myself - and he simply would not respond.

Secondly, since UMD has been around it has made Macedonia joining NATO is its HIGHEST priority, and this is based on their assumption that it will not survive unless it joins. A couple high ranking members of UMD stated at Maknews (before I hit the fan) that Macedonia should change its name to join NATO (Bushav was the one pushing this line hard).

UMD's objective is to bring Macedonia down.

It is not in the business of "defending", rather "taking what we can get" like all shrewd (shallow) fk heads. [B]It will ride the abuse for as long as there is abuse, and for as long as Macedonia has something left to compromise.[/B]

Soldier of Macedon 12-30-2008 11:28 PM

[QUOTE="Pelister"]UMD's objective is to bring Macedonia down.[/QUOTE]
Old friend, despite differing views many share with regard to the UMD and their approach to the Macedonian cause, I don't believe the above quoted statement for a second.

Let's throw the animosity out of the window and start fresh, come on fellas, ultimately we have one goal, the betterment of Macedonia and the Macedonian people.

Pelister 12-30-2008 11:34 PM

I hear ya.

But UMD advocate compromise.

UMD support the negotiations - UMD believe that the Greeks have legitimate grievances, and that the negotiations are legitimate and the Macedonian leadership has the right to be negotiating the terms of the Constitution.

Not the kind of people I want fighting for Macedonia. But defending Macedonia isn't their business.

They do not represent the Macednoian diaspora, even though this is how they portray themselves. Its a fkn sleight on all good and honest Macedonians to have an organization claim is representing them (taking advantage of their good trusting nature), and then pushing the agenda that Macedonia should give in to the Greeks.

I know my Macedonian history well enough to see a traitorous organization when I see one.

If you can steer your eyes away from the "relationships" they are building, and look at what they are really and actually advocating - you might be shocked.

Rogi 12-31-2008 03:41 AM

Pelister,

You have spread a whole lot of untruths and rubbish in this thread. There is absolutely no basis at all for any of what you have written.

You clearly have absolutely no idea about UMD whatsoever.

Where do you get this idea of you being on some high horse, almost God-like and all-seeing, of things that are not there?

UMD does not advocate for a compromise on the name. If it did, I would be working to destroy UMD, rather than build it.
UMD IS advocating for EU and NATO accession for Macedonia, however not at the expense of our Rights and Freedoms as Macedonians.

You are a sad, sad man if what you've written, is your agenda.

Sarafot 12-31-2008 07:02 AM

Hm,interesting thing,is UMD like MPO,i have also seen UMD works with CRVENKOVSKI much,not shure,but which is an organisation who will uniteing all of us around the world,is it WMC,or zo whom we trust to??

When will all this spliting stop!!Man i like to kick somebody ass.

Jankovska 12-31-2008 07:13 AM

[QUOTE=Sarafot;7559]Hm,interesting thing,is UMD like MPO,i have also seen UMD works with CRVENKOVSKI much,not shure,but which is an organisation who will uniteing all of us around the world,is it WMC,or zo whom we trust to??

When will all this spliting stop!!Man i like to kick somebody ass.[/QUOTE]

I'll help you with the arse kicking

Sarafot 12-31-2008 07:33 AM

Any way what hapend with thouse signatures which were colected for oposing the name ishue,it was something like on line petition?

There were a lot of signatures,what hapend to them?

Risto the Great 12-31-2008 06:05 PM

I would say 99.9% of the Macedonian Diaspora does not want any compromise whatsoever and is not willing to negotiate anything in relation to the Macedonian identity. If the UMD is indeed representative of its Diaspora, then this should be the case for the UMD as well.

If the UMD gives the impression that Greeks (amongst others) have grievances that should be acknowledged (even if it is merely in the interest of maintaining dialogue), then this deviates from the Diaspora's wishes.

Rogi, if you can answer on behalf of the UMD, I would appreciate your opinion on my observation. If you cannot, your response is appreciated anyway and I will ask this privately as a financial member and then submit the response here.

Rogi 01-01-2009 04:31 AM

I'll confirm without reservation that UMD does not want and will not support any compromise whatsoever on the part of the Republic of Macedonia.

There is no basis for which Macedonia should compromise even though Macedonia has unfortunately already compromised more than enough (which it should never have done in the first place).

More importantly however, for Macedonia to 'compromise' (and even negotiate with that purpose) is fundamentally wrong and brings into question the sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia and the very purpose of existence of the Republic of Macedonia.

UMD does not acknowledge any 'grievances' from the Greek side. That's just absurd when you consider what they have done to our people and the manner in which they continue to oppress our people.

We are fighting against the Greeks and their treatment of the Macedonian people in Aegean Macedonia and there would be no sense in any Macedonian acknowledging or accepting the new Greek attempts against the Macedonian people OUTSIDE of the modern Greek borders.

Some people in UMD are a little more diplomatic than I am in their [U]written[/U] responses, or anything that can go on record, and will answer more diplomatically than I will and so the response you will get will not be as straight forward as what I will give, but the idea behind it is.

Within UMD, some may have different ideas or opinions than I do on some questions. Actually and more specifically it is mostly differing opinions on methods of attack or prioritising different aspects of the Macedonian cause.

However, overall, after it comes down to internal discussions, disagreements, arguments and finally votes, the general direction of UMD toward the Macedonian Cause is, I believe, aligned with the views of the absolute majority of the Macedonian Diaspora and aligned with what most of us on the forum define as the Macedonian cause and its subsequent goals.

I hope that answer is clear and concise enough to your question? This all above is why I'd like to say to Pelister that what he says about UMD is incorrect. He may have the (correct or incorrect) view of an individual at UMD and may disagree with their views and opinions or even some statements they have made, but that does not represent the views of the organisation and I assure you that if a statement is made which is not in accordance with the view of UMD, such as the one that Meto did make on one video clip posted on the internet, there are repercussions internally and in fact that internal discussion that took place after the statement I am talking about was quite defining and clarifying.

UMD's position is now clear and unwavering, there have been mistakes on UMD's part as with any organisation but I say the best way to make sure the leading organisations and the few active organisations that we have is to get involved with them and help steer them and ensure they maintain the right path for the Macedonian cause.

Risto the Great 01-01-2009 04:48 AM

Excellent response Rogi.
Thanks

Pelister 01-01-2009 07:38 PM

[QUOTE=Rogi;7549]Pelister,

You have spread a whole lot of untruths and rubbish in this thread. There is absolutely no basis at all for any of what you have written.

You clearly have absolutely no idea about UMD whatsoever.

Where do you get this idea of you being on some high horse, almost God-like and all-seeing, of things that are not there?

UMD does not advocate for a compromise on the name. If it did, I would be working to destroy UMD, rather than build it.
UMD IS advocating for EU and NATO accession for Macedonia, however not at the expense of our Rights and Freedoms as Macedonians.

You are a sad, sad man if what you've written, is your agenda.[/QUOTE]

Oh, isn't that rich. Its almost a direct quote from Crvenko himself - typically ambiguous and full of shite.

Why on earth would UMD be advocating joining the E.U when half of its members don't recognize the Macedonians ?? You put too much value in these clubs from a Macedonian point of view, and if joining these clubs is at the top of the list of UMD's priorities for Macedonia - while refusing to engage simple principles of self determination and soveriegnty as a basis for all political relationshiops - then UMD means to do Macedonia harm

UMD support the negotiations. Thats a fact. [B]UMd fully support the position that:
[/B]

1. the dispute is legitimate
2. Greece has legitiamate grievances
3. that Greeks can be Macedonians too


For an organisation that claims "it is not political" whats it doing having a secret meeting with Crvenko (the opposition leader of all people)?

Listen carefully:

UMD are in the game of transforming the idea of what it means to be a Macedonian.

If you look at the direction of UMD's politics, its not only heading toward a compromise of the name, but to a geographical qualifier for Macedonia.

[SIZE="5"]UMD won't defend Macedonians on basic principles of self determination and soveriegnty, but it is ready to accept a "political solution" ! [/SIZE].

I'll be fucked if I ever let an organization such as this pull the wool over peoples eyes.

UMD's political position is IDENTICAL to MPO, Vhrovists ... etc.

Look, if I was a Bulgarian or even a Greek agent who wanted to finally rip the soul out of [B]"what is left"[/B] of Macedonia - I would be pouring my money in UMD !

One ranking member of UMD from Melbourne said on Maknews that changing our name is the only way to move Macedonia out of the dark ages ! What a fucking disgrace. What an ignorant thing to day - someone who knows nothing about Macedonian Christianity over the last 1,700 years.

Risto the Great 01-01-2009 07:55 PM

Pelister, we have Rogi saying "UMD does not advocate for a compromise on the name."

We then have you saying "Oh, isn't that rich. Its almost a direct quote from Crvenko himself".

Crvenko [I]has[/I] advocated a compromise on the name.

How do you reconcile this? Are you suggesting the UMD is lying to everyone?

Pelister 01-01-2009 08:04 PM

What I am saying is that UMD supports the negotiation process - it therefore supports the Greek position, even though this is a direct attack on Macedonia.

Some members of UMD have openly stated on Maknews that Macedonia should compromise its name to join NATO - Bushav being one of them. [Another one has said it must if it is to "move out of the dark ages". I'm not prepared to let shite like that slide.]

I even asked Meto what his position on a name compromise was - and he would not respond.

Furthermore, I sent a letter to Meto asking him to outline his defence against a name change - and he refused to respond. This was after I did alot of work for Meto on the Gorani (before I knew his politics).

I know what they are saying, RTG.

Roqi used the term "diplomatic" to refer to the more political senstive language.

That is part of the problem.

Why does UMD have to be "political sensitive" when all we and anyone else are talking about is standing up for our self determination and soveriegnty.

I think their language is sometimes deliberately ambiguous, and I don't trust an organization, which tries to "mask" what it stands for. There are just too many holes in its actions, the remarks of its members, and its language to be trusted.

[B]And in its "big move" it asked for the suspencion of name negotiations - not because the negotiations are an attack on our soveriegnty, our history and our culture, but for the fked up reason that Greece wasn't "serious".[/B]


Reality check. Greece is deadly serious, and UMd are fking around.

Rogi 01-01-2009 11:53 PM

There's really no point in discussing anything with you. As you've been told numerous times, UMD does not support the negotiation process.

Whilst in Macedonia, we had a meeting with Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki. I was there. We told them that UMD's position is for Macedonia to withdraw from the absurd negotiations over its name, negotiations which go against the very sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia.

They disagreed and thought it better to appear prepared to sit on a table and talk about our name, in order to look good for the international community.

We (UMD) are still pushing for withdrawal with each and every communiqué we have with them.

Do you want UMD to aplogize for not being a military/terrorist organization because that seems to be the only type of organization you would support.

UMD is not such an organization and it advocates a completely different approach to achieving the goals of the Macedonian cause.

Many different types of organizations are needed in order to achieve the goals of the Macedonian cause, some inside Macedonia, some outside Macedonia, some more radical, some based on politics and lobbying, some based on arts and culture, some based on philanthropy, some based on charity, some for human rights, some with business leaders, some with IT experts and hackers, etc etc.

UMD is a registered not for profit charitable organization and its mission, objectives and goals are Right and based on and aligned with the Macedonian cause.

I have explained UMD's position to you and you are unwilling to accept anything I've written, but rather you are being quite ignorant and stubborn holding to your own misconceptions and creations.

[quote]One ranking member of UMD from Melbourne said on Maknews that changing our name is the only way to move Macedonia out of the dark ages[/quote]

Care to tell us who that was? Other than Ordan Andreevski (who is not a Maknews member) and myself, there are no other 'ranking members of UMD from Melbourne' so you've either made that up, or you are being told stories that you're spreading.



Finally, stop referring to me as 'Roqi' (with a q) my nickname is 'Rogi' (with a g).
My name is Igor and my nickname is my name in reverse.

Pelister 01-02-2009 12:33 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;7700]There's really no point in discussing anything with you. As you've been told numerous times, UMD does not support the negotiation process.

Whilst in Macedonia, we had a meeting with Prime Minister Nikola Gruevski and Foreign Minister Antonio Milososki. I was there. We told them that UMD's position is for Macedonia to withdraw from the absurd negotiations over its name, negotiations which go against the very sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia.

They disagreed and thought it better to appear prepared to sit on a table and talk about our name, in order to look good for the international community.

We (UMD) are still pushing for withdrawal with each and every communiqué we have with them.

Do you want UMD to aplogize for not being a military/terrorist organization because that seems to be the only type of organization you would support.

UMD is not such an organization and it advocates a completely different approach to achieving the goals of the Macedonian cause.

Many different types of organizations are needed in order to achieve the goals of the Macedonian cause, some inside Macedonia, some outside Macedonia, some more radical, some based on politics and lobbying, some based on arts and culture, some based on philanthropy, some based on charity, some for human rights, some with business leaders, some with IT experts and hackers, etc etc.

UMD is a registered not for profit charitable organization and its mission, objectives and goals are Right and based on and aligned with the Macedonian cause.

I have explained UMD's position to you and you are unwilling to accept anything I've written, but rather you are being quite ignorant and stubborn holding to your own misconceptions and creations.



Care to tell us who that was? Other than Ordan Andreevski (who is not a Maknews member) and myself, there are no other 'ranking members of UMD from Melbourne' so you've either made that up, or you are being told stories that you're spreading.



Finally, stop referring to me as 'Roqi' (with a q) my nickname is 'Rogi' (with a g).
My name is Igor and my nickname is my name in reverse.[/QUOTE]


That is reassuring.

I'd like you to produce some of these "communiques" and I can find out from the other end, whether they are genuine.

Here is the problem Rogi.

1. Your telling me UMD are pushing to "withdraw from the absurd negotiations" on the grounds that its an attack on Macedonian sovereignty.

2. PUBLICLY UMD has called for a "suspension" (not a withdraw) and not on the grounds you are stating to me - rather on the grounds that UMD thinks the Greeks are not "serious". (This very public position tells me that a name change is acceptable to UMD as long as the Greeks are reasonable about it! Its a shifty round-a-bout way of saying it, but its there plain as day).

Say one thing, do something else.

So you can understand that when I think of two-faced snakes - I think of UMD.


Secondly,

I've been in contact (by accident) with a small number of very competent and intelligent people who left UMD because they did not agree with [I]Meto's politics[/I] regarding the name, and Meto's politics regarding the negotiations. I have no reason to doubt their word - they left on ideological grounds.

Also, someone let it slip on Maknews that a [I]name change for NATO membership was acceptable[/I]. I only found out [I]later[/I] that they were a UMD member close to Meto.

So I confronted the individuals in question, and finally I confronted Meto about it. He would not respond, or give me an answer (I took this personally, because I did some work for him).

UMD is a playing politics, so you can spin the whole "non-profit" spiel all you want.

[B]Given UMD's public announcements, the ideological division between who is there now, and those who left, as well as that ideas of some members of UMD expressed on Maknews - I would have to conclude that UMD's politics is bad for Macedonia, and bad for the Macedonians, and if Greeks and Bulgars got wind of what UMD was really about - you would have an endless supply of money.[/B]

I'm not a militant, and some your personal attacks don't bother me. I'm a greenie, and a humanist - I'm a Christian and my Macedonian ancestors were brutalized and tortured by the Greeks - and UMD doesn't give a fuck.

Rogi 01-02-2009 12:46 AM

Firstly, I have not personally attacked you anywhere in this thread. I have re-read my posts and do not see how it can be read as a personal attack.

Secondly, I have sent you a private message. I hope you are able to respond to it

Jankovska 01-02-2009 05:05 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;7701]That is reassuring.

I'd like you to produce some of these "communiques" and I can find out from the other end, whether they are genuine.

Here is the problem Rogi.

1. Your telling me UMD are pushing to "withdraw from the absurd negotiations" on the grounds that its an attack on Macedonian sovereignty.

2. PUBLICLY UMD has called for a "suspension" (not a withdraw) and not on the grounds you are stating to me - rather on the grounds that UMD thinks the Greeks are not "serious". (This very public position tells me that a name change is acceptable to UMD as long as the Greeks are reasonable about it! Its a shifty round-a-bout way of saying it, but its there plain as day).

Say one thing, do something else.

So you can understand that when I think of two-faced snakes - I think of UMD.


Secondly,

I've been in contact (by accident) with a small number of very competent and intelligent people who left UMD because they did not agree with [I]Meto's politics[/I] regarding the name, and Meto's politics regarding the negotiations. I have no reason to doubt their word - they left on ideological grounds.

Also, someone let it slip on Maknews that a [I]name change for NATO membership was acceptable[/I]. I only found out [I]later[/I] that they were a UMD member close to Meto.

So I confronted the individuals in question, and finally I confronted Meto about it. He would not respond, or give me an answer (I took this personally, because I did some work for him).

UMD is a playing politics, so you can spin the whole "non-profit" spiel all you want.

[B]Given UMD's public announcements, the ideological division between who is there now, and those who left, as well as that ideas of some members of UMD expressed on Maknews - I would have to conclude that UMD's politics is bad for Macedonia, and bad for the Macedonians, and if Greeks and Bulgars got wind of what UMD was really about - you would have an endless supply of money.[/B]

I'm not a militant, and some your personal attacks don't bother me. I'm a greenie, and a humanist - I'm a Christian and my Macedonian ancestors were brutalized and tortured by the Greeks - and UMD doesn't give a fuck.[/QUOTE]


Hey Pelister

Did you say you contact UMD directly and asked for answers? What was the response?

Pelister 01-07-2009 08:33 PM

No response, Jankovska.

And I know of a couple people who left UMd because of ideological differences with its leadership - and the people who left were asking for nothing more than the defence and preservation of the Macedonian identity. UMd have said that they are not into the business of defending Macedonian rights ...etc, they are a different kind of political organization.

Bratot 01-07-2009 08:55 PM

Без да навлегвам во спорот меѓу вас, мислам дека не е најпаметно овие внатрешни дискусии да ги водите пред очите на душманите.

Pelister 01-07-2009 09:08 PM

[QUOTE=Bratot;8661]Без да навлегвам во спорот меѓу вас, мислам дека не е најпаметно овие внатрешни дискусии да ги водите пред очите на душманите.[/QUOTE]

Your probably right, and I'm kinda pleased I was able to read what your wrote and understand it. I've been tyring to teach myself to read in Macedonian. Thanks.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:00 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Macedonian Truth Organisation