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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Amphipolis 04-26-2020 12:07 AM

This has been repeatedly debunked. Look back at posts #414 and #415 for a start.

It would be great if this woman had produced research related to her claims. No, she hasn't.



===

Carlin15 04-26-2020 07:14 AM

Maria Efthimiou is a respected modern Greek historian and not a malicious "foreigner", or somebody that does not have credentials. I've seen her appear on Greek TV programs and is usually attacked for her views by Greek nationalists such as yourself. Do you not think she might be familiar with all theories or claims that allegedly debunk her statements or numbers? Now, she might not be 100% correct but neither are claims that Albanians were [I]less than 5-10%[/I] when we know that entire regions (south of Thessaly) were still compactly settled and inhabited by descendants of ethnic Albanians at the close of the 18th century.

I respect people's right to self-identity and nationality, but exchanging your mother tongue for modern Greek in the 19th century does not make those people ancient Hellenes.



Unrelated:

Nicholas Geoffrey Hammond places the foundation of Preveza at the end of the 14th century, possibly by Albanians. In the book "Octavian's Campsite Memorial for the Actian War" (by William Michael Murray, Photios Michael Petsas) it is stated on page 153 that Preveza was not attested until the beginning of the 15th century when Albanians were settled at the entrance of the Ambracian Gulf.

Amphipolis 04-26-2020 09:14 AM

I'm not a Greek nationalist. Unfortunately, I checked her scientific profile and could hardly locate international publications or citations to her work. So yes, I guess in this case she pulled the number out of her ass.

She doesn't have a google scholar profile, her name is too common, she uses alternate names, most of her work is before the internet era etc. If there IS such an effort in her work, feel free to find it yourself, it won't be very easy. Send her an e-mail.
[URL="http://www.arch.uoa.gr/fileadmin/arch.uoa.gr/uploads/cvs/efthymiou_gr.pdf"]http://www.arch.uoa.gr/fileadmin/arch.uoa.gr/uploads/cvs/efthymiou_gr.pdf[/URL]


Lithoxoou is an anti-Greek activist and an amateur "historian" who can... count and at least he made an effort, proving that however you overblow the numbers of Albanians they don't exceed 10%.



===

tchaiku 05-08-2020 07:15 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;182776]I'm not a Greek nationalist. Unfortunately, I checked her scientific profile and could hardly locate international publications or citations to her work. So yes, I guess in this case she pulled the number out of her ass.

She doesn't have a google scholar profile, her name is too common, she uses alternate names, most of her work is before the internet era etc. If there IS such an effort in her work, feel free to find it yourself, it won't be very easy. Send her an e-mail.
[URL="http://www.arch.uoa.gr/fileadmin/arch.uoa.gr/uploads/cvs/efthymiou_gr.pdf"]http://www.arch.uoa.gr/fileadmin/arch.uoa.gr/uploads/cvs/efthymiou_gr.pdf[/URL]


Lithoxoou is an anti-Greek activist and an amateur "historian" who can... count and at least he made an effort, proving that however you overblow the numbers of Albanians they don't exceed 10%.



===[/QUOTE]

Albanians were 15% in 1850s, and probably 20% in Early Greeks state in 1832.
The reason why it decrease is that many Arvanites from Attica, for example moved to Athens as well as other rural zones, and there was a migration of other Greeks from outside the borders.

The figure of Arvanites that Lixouthou gave refers after many other regions of Greece were joined into the Greek state in 1907.
In 1890 Arvanites are counted as 12.5% of Peloponnese including the islands and 10% of mainland Peloponnese. With that being said many Arvanite villages, especially outside of Argolis, were omitted in those maps especially those in northwestern mountains of Peloponnese.

--
Carlin - The fact that Thessaly was once called Great Vlachia could suggest that it was [I][B]overpopulated [/B][/I]by Vlachs. Do you think so too?

Carlin15 05-08-2020 09:05 PM

LOL, I think you know my opinion on the matter.

I found the following to be noteworthy. It comes from a book by Abdolonyme Ubicini "Letters on Turkey" [U]published in 1856[/U].

Page 174: "... they take pride in the appellation of Roumouns or Roumains. The Greeks call them Vlaques, and the Sclavonians Zingaris. [B]A document recently published at Athens[/B] computes the number of Zingaris dispersed through Greece and the Turkish provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia at [B]600,000[/B]."

600,000 "dispersed" through Greece (and the provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia) is still a [I]staggering[/I] number -- in the year 1856. The author then states how this number is "probably an exaggeration", based on other figures/census. I would consider it understated. (In 1756, as opposed to say 1856, the number of Vlach-speakers would have been even greater and more "shocking".)

It's "problematic" because this number was given in [I][B]A document recently published at Athens[/B][/I]. What was the name of this document? Was it published in the years prior to 1856? What happened to this document? Ubicini obviously saw it or read about it -- and reported on it.

Why would official Athens provide this number? Today, there are only a couple of thousand Vlach-speakers in Greece but extrapolating "600,000" to today's numbers in Greece, and accounting for natural population growth, etc........does not produce a couple of thousand Vlach-speakers.

Amphipolis 05-09-2020 08:12 AM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;182766]Based on the 1951 census, 5 biggest ethnic groups (based on mother language), bold when exceeding 1%

Continental Greece (& Euboea): [B]Greek[/B]>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Vlach
Peloponnesus: [B]Greek[/B]>Albanian>Turkish>Gypsy>Armenian
Ionian Islands: [B]Greek[/B]>Turkish>Armenian>Albanian>Italian
Thessaly: [B]Greek>Vlach[/B]>Turkish>Gypsy>Latino-Jewish
Macedonia: [B]Greek(92,9%)>Turkish(3,3%)>Slavic(2,4%)[/B]>Vlach(0,7%)>Gypsy(0,2%)
Epirus: [B]Greek>Vlach>Albanian>[/B]Turkish>Gypsy
Crete: [B]Greek[/B]>Turkish>Armenian>French=English
Aegean Islands: [B]Greek>[/B]Turkish>Slavic>Romanian>Armenian
Thrace: [B]Greek>Turkish>Pomak>Albanian[/B]>Gypsy
==[/QUOTE]

More detailed on Vlachs by 1951 (this is about mother language, not home language), districts with a percentage above 1%

Continental Greece
Aetolia-Acarnania 1,4%

Thessaly
Larisa 3,6%
Trikala 4,3%

Macedonia
Hemathia 3,5%
Kilkis 1,9%
Pella 1,2%
Pieria 1,3%
Florina 1,3%

Epirus
Thesprotia 5,0%
Ioannina 4,9%
Preveza 2,4%

Carlin15 05-09-2020 11:24 AM

In addition to Arvanites, Armani (Vlachs), Lazes or Gagauzes being of GREEK ORIGIN, so are the Bulgarians, Thracians but also Paeonians:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ld472CLbhiQ[/url]

This video was made back in 2011. Pretty curious that the term "North Macedonia" appears at 3:55 minute. The ancient Paeonians were GREEKS too! Who knew!

[img]https://i.imgur.com/d2tW2zG.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/ZKuozVn.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/3sRK7rG.png[/img]

Thracians are also Greeks, specifically [U]Proto-Ionians[/U]. One of the proofs for this was because Xenophon stated the following (?):
[img]https://i.imgur.com/tFT1fE8.png[/img]

Wouldn't this indicate that the Ionians were a Hellenized population group?

Something worth exploring, and this is something I read years ago, is that a category of soldiers, who were guards of forts, were called Burgarii and/or Bourgari. Is this how the name of Bulgarians arose?

(In the Arman-Vlach language --> Vurgari = "Bulgarians".)

[img]https://i.imgur.com/IP1GSs9.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/BAznNV2.png[/img]

Carlin15 05-09-2020 06:40 PM

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;182776]I'm not a Greek nationalist. Unfortunately, I checked her scientific profile and could hardly locate international publications or citations to her work. So yes, I guess in this case she pulled the number out of her ass.

She doesn't have a google scholar profile, her name is too common, she uses alternate names, most of her work is before the internet era etc. If there IS such an effort in her work, feel free to find it yourself, it won't be very easy. Send her an e-mail.
[URL="http://www.arch.uoa.gr/fileadmin/arch.uoa.gr/uploads/cvs/efthymiou_gr.pdf"]http://www.arch.uoa.gr/fileadmin/arch.uoa.gr/uploads/cvs/efthymiou_gr.pdf[/URL]


Lithoxoou is an anti-Greek activist and an amateur "historian" who can... count and at least he made an effort, proving that however you overblow the numbers of Albanians they don't exceed 10%.



===[/QUOTE]

"Unfortunately", she is legit. A simple search of "μαρια ευθυμιου" in YouTube returned the following results:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B8%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%85[/url]

As a result, I'm sticking with her estimate that in Greece, in 1830, the percentage of Arvanite population was roughly 40%. One day, it is possible that she may "recant" what she said, however, that would likely be due to pressure -- and would not change anything, even if it happens.

I would also be interested in finding out more about the "document published at Athens", around 1856, which reported that 600,000 "Vlachs" were dispersed through Greece including the provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia. However, something tells me we will never be able to learn more about this document.

Amphipolis 05-10-2020 12:46 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;182887]"Unfortunately", she is legit. A simple search of "μαρια ευθυμιου" in YouTube returned the following results:
[url]https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CE%B9%CE%B1+%CE%B5%CF%85%CE%B8%CF%85%CE%BC%CE%B9%CE%BF%CF%85[/url]

As a result, I'm sticking with her estimate that in Greece, in 1830, the percentage of Arvanite population was roughly 40%. One day, it is possible that she may "recant" what she said, however, that would likely be due to pressure -- and would not change anything, even if it happens.

I would also be interested in finding out more about the "document published at Athens", around 1856, which reported that 600,000 "Vlachs" were dispersed through Greece including the provinces of Thessaly and Macedonia. However, something tells me we will never be able to learn more about this document.[/QUOTE]

1. This statement of yours makes me more curious on what you think legit means, your age, location, studies and interests.

2. As I've said before, she doesn't look or sound capable of estimations. She does pulls numbers, but doesn't look like a person that can handle (e.g. add) numbers, as "non-legit" Lithoxoou did. Still, she does have an e-mail, maybe she has written a relevant article that she can send to you and prove me wrong.

3. The author probably refers to a rough estimation in a scientific journal of that time. It could be this one:

[URL="https://www.scribd.com/document/396401782/%CE%91%CE%A1%CE%91%CE%92%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%A4%CE%99%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%A3-%CE%A0-%CE%A7%CE%A1%CE%9F%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%93%CE%A1%CE%91%CE%A6%CE%99%CE%91-%CE%A4%CE%97%CE%A3-%CE%97%CE%A0%CE%95%CE%99%CE%A1%CE%9F%CE%A5-%CE%A4%CE%9F%CE%9C%CE%9F%CE%A3-%CE%92-%CE%91%CE%98%CE%97%CE%9D%CE%91-1856-1-180"]https://www.scribd.com/document/396401782/%CE%91%CE%A1%CE%91%CE%92%CE%91%CE%9D%CE%A4%CE%99%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%A3-%CE%A0-%CE%A7%CE%A1%CE%9F%CE%9D%CE%9F%CE%93%CE%A1%CE%91%CE%A6%CE%99%CE%91-%CE%A4%CE%97%CE%A3-%CE%97%CE%A0%CE%95%CE%99%CE%A1%CE%9F%CE%A5-%CE%A4%CE%9F%CE%9C%CE%9F%CE%A3-%CE%92-%CE%91%CE%98%CE%97%CE%9D%CE%91-1856-1-180[/URL]

Carlin15 05-16-2020 08:29 AM

1. LOL I am asking myself the same question about you. What do you think the term "legit" means?
2. Why would you think she has any need to prove you wrong, or anybody else for that matter? The [I]numbers[/I] you or Lithoxoou rely on can be questioned and may be unreliable. This is because any "official" census in the Balkan states became uneasy early on ([I]quoting from page 463 below[/I]) due to the policy of national intolerance of all the sovereign states with regard to ethnic-linguistic groups ([I]this is especially the case for the entire 19th century[/I]). Do you not leave some room for analysis?
3. Unfortunately, I am only able to view the first couple of pages of the link you shared. Does it say something along the following lines?

[B][SIZE="3"]"Old statistics gave the figure of 600,000 Aromanians, living in Greece ([I]Rizos Rangabe[/I] in the review [I]Pandora[/I], 1856)."[/SIZE][/B]

[img]https://i.imgur.com/PmlOLhp.png[/img]
[img]https://i.imgur.com/YDfRXeZ.png[/img]

PS:

Is Professor Thanos Veremis "legit"?

Professor Thanos Veremis, President of Greece's National Council of Education and founding member of the influential think-tank Hellenic Foundation for Defence and Foreign Policy (better known by its Greek acronym, ELIAMEP) made the following statement:

"Unfortunately, we (Greeks) are deeply conservative as a society. This (ethnic) homogeneity has been harmful (to us). The situation during the 19th century was different. It was rather fortunate that at that time Koraes and others had the inspiration to connect us with Ancient Hellas (an undertaking) which became the main (pre)occupation of the newly born State. In those days, there were Arvanites, Vlachs and Slavs. All of them had to become (part of) one (national body). And so they became. But this is not to say that in this day and age (we/they) should be under the illusion that (we/they) are descendants of Pericles. This (assimilating process of ethnic/national homogenization) might have been helpful before -even though we could not avoid a civil war- but it does not help us nowadays. Today we are not alone. We are surrounded by many neighbors. The (Greek) society must adapt (to new realities) instead of remaining insular and introvert."


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