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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Soldier of Macedon 07-16-2009 09:50 PM

[QUOTE]Too much nationalism and the ancient rhetoric from Macedonia have damaged our reputation although we were the losers last April.[/QUOTE]
Are you ashamed of Macedonia's heritage Mr. Mitreski? Circumstances have driven our current state and behaviour, any less nationalism and the world will say, "hey, look, their own history means little to them, why would adding a prefix to the name of the state matter".......

Would you prefer Medieval rhetoric? 19th/20th century VMRO rhetoric? Right about now, Macedonians need to be proud and aware of their history and achievements throughout, not allow some 1920's refugee from Turkey or some European 'expert' the right to negate our identity.

I don't see how the Greeks are playing it "to perfection", they are merely in a protected position right now because of their membership in these racist organisations that our leaders want Macedonia to be a part of, their actions have been nothing short of a disgrace and their style of politics has got them nowhere so far. 17 years and no deal - Perfection? I don't think so.

Risto the Great 07-16-2009 10:17 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19729]I don't see how the Greeks are playing it "to perfection", they are merely in a protected position right now because of their membership in these racist organisations that our leaders want Macedonia to be a part of, their actions have been nothing short of a disgrace and their style of politics has got them nowhere so far. 17 years and no deal - Perfection? I don't think so.[/QUOTE]

Unless by perfection he means the Greeks are promoting "too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric" in which case ... they seem to be playing with something to perfection.

Dear UMD, please commit to a "Macedonian Cause" because if your vision of Macedonia is a modern nation constructed in a similar fashion to the USA then you have committed a gross act of ignorance in relation to our identity.

Pelister 07-18-2009 02:30 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19731]Unless by perfection he means the Greeks are promoting "too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric" in which case ... they seem to be playing with something to perfection.

Dear UMD, please commit to a "Macedonian Cause" because if your vision of Macedonia is a modern nation constructed in a similar fashion to the USA then you have committed a gross act of ignorance in relation to our identity.[/QUOTE]

I am certain their "Vision" of Macedonia is a along the Swiss lines. A State not based on any single nationality.

Soldier of Macedon 07-18-2009 07:51 PM

Macedonia should always remain as the homeland and the nation-state of the Macedonian people and language as a priority, with full rights to minorities. However, the Swiss model has no place in Macedonia, nor has the other extreme, which is the Greek model. Pelister, what would suggest that the UMD are leaning towards such an idea?

Pelister 07-20-2009 01:37 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19836]Macedonia should always remain as the homeland and the nation-state of the Macedonian people and language as a priority, with full rights to minorities. However, the Swiss model has no place in Macedonia, nor has the other extreme, which is the Greek model. Pelister, what would suggest that the UMD are leaning towards such an idea?[/QUOTE]

Let me share some thoughts.

I while ago some members of UMD were trying to define the "Macedonian Nationality" retrospectively. They had already forumulated their definition, and began looking for historical evidence to represent the work.

Attention was drawn to a single line in the Krushevo Manifesto, which would be used as the basis of this UMD definition of our 'nationality'. Its implication was that Greeks, Albanians, Vlachs and Bulgarians, could be Macedonians too. I thought at the time that this was unacceptable, that a single line could not possibly define a struggle that preceeded it by at least 50 years, and proceeded it by 50, where it was only Macedonians fighting - the irony was only sharpened when you consider that our demise was entirely at the hands of Albanians, Turks, Greeks and Bulgarians.

I found the exercise to be reductionist, and historically speaking, took the focus off the 999 times out of a 1000 - it was a movement by ethnic Macedonians, for Macedonia only.

I was certain there was some distortion going on, but you know these things seem right at the time.

But it was too reminiscent of the kind of "tinkering" UMD seem to advocate with our identity.

The fact is that Meto has just advocated a name change, very publicly. UMD still believe that "membership" is the prize. Now, [B]I recieve a letter informing me that UMD shares the opinion of Nimetz that the negotiations [I]are necessary[/I].[/B]

What this demonstrates I believe is that their "politics" is becoming increasingly untenable, and the cracks are beginning to appear.

UMD were happy to issue a statement that they don't accept a name change, but ask them if they are prepared to do the same for the negotiations (EVEN THOUGH IT IS OUR IDENTITY ON THE LINE !) ?

UMD are amateurs who have eyes only for the E.U and NATO, and believe that negotiating our Macedonian Nationality IS NECESSARY to gain membership. They are drunk on a fantasy - "membership" cannot be justified in any way when it is our historical identity at stake. But UMD would not cross that line.

UMD will hide behind the Macedonian government, and "accept" whatever they decide, regardless of its illegality or what it means for our soveriegnty and our rights.

Given all the givens, their short hand definition of a [I]historic[/I] "Macedonian Nationality" that includes Albanians, Vlach, Greeks and Bulgarians ... as a general rule to define the historic Macedonian Nationality leads us to only one place - multiple Macedonian Nationalies, hence the Swiss model. How does this embody the memory of a past history of suffering, invasion, colonization, dispossesion and atrocities ? It doesn't.

p.s

Statehood is the highest expression of our Macedonian Nationality, specifically the name of our State. Take the name away as an expression of our historic and cultural identity (Macedonian), and there is no [I]formal[/I] Macedonian Nationality in the world of nations.

Risto the Great 07-20-2009 02:12 AM

I personally think anyone can be of Macedonian Nationality.
But a question of Macedonian Ethnicity can only be answered by one group of people and we know who we are.
We cannot compare to Switzerland because there is no Swiss Ethnicity.

Pelister 07-20-2009 02:38 AM

In todays parlance I suppose anyone can, your right.

But, the fight for Statehood and the fight for a Macedonian Nationality has been an exclusive ethnic Macedonian affair for the better part of 150 years. (1 exception does not change that fact, or does it?).

In any case - I don't have anything personal against its author. Some members of UMD are wonderful people - its just their politics I don't agree with.

Soldier of Macedon 07-20-2009 03:08 AM

Thanks for the response Pelister. The apparent 'necessity' of the negotiations and the garbage about 'ancient rhetoric' cited by Mitreski has left an unfavourable impression with me where it concerns the UMD, I wouldn't have thought that a member of the UMD would be saying these things, particularly the latter. Anybody would think it is Lupcho Gorgievski talking his usual garbage, if these people are ashamed of their heritage they should look outside of Macedonia for it, not try and supress or manipulate that from within.

[QUOTE]We have talked in private to Macedonian officials that we need to end these negotiations. We will continue to do so.[/QUOTE]
Who is "we" bre Northern Mitreski? Who are you talking on behalf of, I am not in unison with you, don't dare try and represent me and all the others like me with your defeatist garbage.

I have to say it, this is the first time I have seen such low garbage talk from a representative of the UMD, I am utterly disgusted, maybe I am the one at fault here for giving the benefit of doubt one too many times.

Rogi 07-20-2009 05:27 AM

You guys are seriously misrepresenting UMD and Pelister is misinterpreting Aleksandar's letter.

If anything, Aleksandar is one of the guys that is completely against the negotiations.

He doesn't know you and doesn't trust you (and I guess rightfully so, since you do publicise private emails) he gave you a political response. The same type of response he would giveto the Greeks who email UMD pretending to be Macedonians, only to use that response to undermine UMD's access to politicians in the US and cause legal problems with UMD's not-for-profit status (and there are daily attempts at this, you would be amazed).

The truth is, take the anti-UMD bias away and you'll see that Aleksandar wrote that we have been talking to the Government each and every time telling them to end the negotiations (on the same basis that Paul/Pelister argues here, our Sovereignty). That's the one and only position we have - if we could force the Government to do that, we would, unfortunately our power is limited and the Government is not listening to us, or to the World Macedonian Congress, or to many, many other Macedonians around the world and in Macedonia who are saying the same thing - end the negotiations immediately.

In any case, UMD's policies and positions documents are coming out soon (currently being worked on), and I have to thank Paul/Pelister for that because his anti-UMD posts have helped me push the need for defined and public UMD policies and positions (and a definition of the Macedonian cause), so they'll be out soon. Personally, I figure that's what Paul/Pelister's aim is all along - not to 'destroy' UMD, but to keep it on its toes and on the right track (same reason why I'm still in UMD)

Risto the Great 07-20-2009 07:08 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;19858]
In any case, UMD's policies and positions documents are coming out soon (currently being worked on), and I have to thank Paul/Pelister for that because his anti-UMD posts have helped me push the need for defined and public UMD policies and positions (and a definition of the Macedonian cause), so they'll be out soon. Personally, I figure that's what Paul/Pelister's aim is all along - not to 'destroy' UMD, but to keep it on its toes and on the right track (same reason why I'm still in UMD)[/QUOTE]

Rogi, personally I would rather have you in the UMD than not for the above reasons. The fact that we are still guessing somewhat about the intent of the UMD still makes me believe they need to work MUCH harder than they are right now in order to truly represent the Macedonian Diaspora. How on Earth could the UMD have existed for so long WITHOUT policies and positions? The UMD should publicly kiss Paul's arse for his vigilance.

The fact that you suggest Mitreski is one of the leaders who prefers NOT to negotiate suggests other leaders WANT to negotiate. We are back where we started. Stated policies and positions mean nothing in the back rooms when the commitment from UMD's leadership is divided. How utterly stupid do they look when their only paid leader has publicly stated negotiations are inevitable and yet the UMD states it is against negotiations. Surely you understand the big cloud hanging over the UMD.

Do you think the UMD would be opposed to anything in the Macedonian Cause as it presently sits in this forum? Where in particular?

We have confirmed the UMD thinks too much nationalism and ancient rhetoric are bad things. We now know one of its positions. I think Macedonia is so lacking in nationalism that it is embarrassing. This is a "position" that the UMD members surely need to know about.

You have suggested Mitreski gave a rather generic reply because many people use this correspondence as a means of trying to make Macedonians look bad etc. Well it can be safely assumed it was written with a potential public airing. I see no need to blame Paul for publicly sharing this generic sounding response.

I think the UMD needs to make it very clear what its position is on every issue that is clearly of importance to Diaspora members. I see it as an opportunity to entice the maximum number of potential members to the UMD. It is as simple as defining what are the most important matters to Macedonians. It certainly is not about pushing what the UMD [I]thinks[/I] is best for the Macedonians. The cause is a good idea, as discussed previously. Five years after its formation the UMD is thinking about its policies and positions .... better late than never.


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