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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Giorikas 07-13-2009 03:32 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;19388]Giorikas, most professors with whom a number of Macedonians have had contact, who are alleged 'signatories' to Miller's list, have privately stated their opposition to Miller's letter and its intention.

They have also asked that any private correspondence remain private - and I suppose understandably so when their livelihood is at stake.

I expect whatever correspondence Risto has had with any professors, is of the same nature.

Nobody needs to prove anything to you, since you are an irrelevant non-factor for this case.[/QUOTE]

Well, it's odd. These are PHD's not politicians. I believe (regardsless which side they would support) that no one would let their professional reputation be affected. (by co-signing something something) Especially if they 'oppose it'.
It's odd that they should have private correspondances with complete strangers, where not only they admit this (put their reputation on the line) but in fact admit that they are being paid, and that they will continue to be paid. It doesn't make sense.

Also, I don't see how their livelyhood is at stake. What do you mean ? Will they disappear ? Will they lose their jobs for voicing their opposition ? Will they be denied entry for Greece ? Will their family members be harrassed ?
Finally I don't understand why you should protect your enemy. What do you have to lose ? Also, even if I am glad that a large numer of PHD's think the same way as me, I personally would not like to see bought support. If they agree, good, if not, fine too, (in the end, this is a debate where not everything is crystal clear) but certainly I wouldn't want anybody paid off to agree with me just for reasons of financial benefits.
Summarizing; I consider all this as total nonsense. Either make a statement and back it up, or don't make the statement.

Daskalot 07-13-2009 03:57 AM

[QUOTE=Giorikas;19469]
Secondly, I don't see the connection to what I said in that last message. I repeat, if there are some 300 PHD's or so that support the Greek side in a letter, surely you can do the same with PHD's that support your side.[/QUOTE]

Giorikas, I think you need to read Alexandras recent response to Prof. Miller please read it here: [url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1569[/url]

There you will notice that Miller has revised himself and does not call on the current US administration to revoke its decision in regards to the name of Macedonia, but rather to protect Alexanders legacy.

Please give us your answer in the above mentiond thread, I am really keen on hearing it.

Giorikas 07-13-2009 03:57 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19471]Giorikas, I have been overseas. I understand a cockroach can live without its head for 12 days. I thought you would be alright without a response for a while. Apparently not.

When the top professors of the top universities call Alexander's ethnicity "dubious" and are aware of the persecution of minorities in Greece, it is clear that your "signatories" have acute knowledge of the situation but understand the economics of their existence and give it more priority than their conscience.

I asked each of the professors if they would mind making our private correspondence public. They declined. Being a man of integrity, I have honoured their wishes. It is a shame because the correspondence with the people I have had would absolutely blow any of these perceived Greek arguments out of the water. As ultimately the debate can only be focussed on modern arguments about sovereignty and the right to self identification. Greece knows it will fail this argument every time. It has no provinces called Macedonia. Please feel free to check. Not that it matters anyway.

When professors of leading institutions are admitting they are funded by Greece on many projects it is not difficult to understand their motivation for signing that hateful letter.

Feel free to read the link on this website to Professor Tompkins review of the Miller letter. Tell me what you disagree with. Interestingly, the professors from esteemed universities around the world were also unable to disagree with the points he raised. Yet they signed a letter to secure future funding it would seem.

I promise you, you are most welcome to visit me and I will show you my private correspondence with these people. Call it a Haji pilgrimage to Australia if you like.[/QUOTE]

I'm quite allright without your responses thank you. Please leave the cockroach references out of it. I'm not doing the same with you. Last warning.

What do you mean with 'each of the professors' ? Do you mean, 'each of the professors you contacted', or 'each of the professors that you contacted and admitted that being paid off' or do you mean, each of the professors on the list.
If it means, 'each of the professors you contacted and admitted being paid off' to a stranger on paper (I find that difficult to believe) then the follwing:
To make it a bit less vague, how many did you contact, and how many admitted being paid off ? You can mention that without exposing anyone. What is the number we can take away from that list.

It's a really strange story. I mean, Greece is a small country that hardly has money to fund it's own university programmes, and has much overdue archeological works that need urgent funding. I find it not very likely that significant enough sums go abroad to foreign universities.

Surely you can (and let everyone draw it's own conclusions based upon that) make an overview of how much money goes from Greece to which foreign universities, per university. That would not expose anyone and you would honor your word not to use that correspondance. That should be public knowlegde.

Risto the Great 07-13-2009 05:04 AM

Giorikas, if I was an expert on Greek affairs, who do you think my best market is? Which newspapers will be most interested in what I have to say? Are you aware of the professors paid by the greek government to misinform the public in the 1990's? Why do you find this difficult to believe, it is painfully obvious what the motivations are. Did you read the Tompkins analysis?

Sorry if the cockroach reference offends Giorikas. But you always seem to crawl out at the most unexpected of times. Perhaps you should warn me again.

Anyone here remember the professor on the Greek payroll who visited Australia? He failed miserably in
Adelaide.

Giorikas 07-13-2009 05:58 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19487]Giorikas, if I was an expert on Greek affairs, who do you think my best market is? Which newspapers will be most interested in what I have to say? Are you aware of the professors paid by the greek government to misinform the public in the 1990's? Why do you find this difficult to believe, it is painfully obvious what the motivations are. Did you read the Tompkins analysis?

Sorry if the cockroach reference offends Giorikas. But you always seem to crawl out at the most unexpected of times. Perhaps you should warn me again.

Anyone here remember the professor on the Greek payroll who visited Australia? He failed miserably in
Adelaide.[/QUOTE]

So you're not providing me with the numbers. Now, I went along with this story about 'being a man of your word' for arguments sake but this has nothing to do with that. You are distorting the truth again. You suggest a lot, but prove nothing. And when I ask you how many you contacted, and of those how many admitted to have signed the letter for reasons of funding you are dodging the bullet again. Just clarify it so that we all know what you're talking about. (knowing full well that we still won't be able to actually verify it). That would be only fair.

And no, I did not read the Tompkins analysis.

Daskalot 07-13-2009 06:07 AM

[QUOTE=Giorikas;19491]So you're not providing me with the numbers. Now, I went along with this story about 'being a man of your word' for arguments sake but this has nothing to do with that. You are distorting the truth again. You suggest a lot, but prove nothing. And when I ask you how many you contacted, and of those how many admitted to have signed the letter for reasons of funding you are dodging the bullet again. Just clarify it so that we all know what you're talking about. (knowing full well that we still won't be able to actually verify it). That would be only fair.

And no, I did not read the Tompkins analysis.[/QUOTE]

Giorikas, I have no knowledge to how many and whom Risto has contacted of the signatories, BUT if he only contacted 1 of them and this person admitts to what Risto does state above doesnt that automatically jeopardize the whole validity of the letter?

You see there is no need to ask them all, all we need is one of the signatories, and everything falls apart.

From being a letter of protest to becoming a veichle of propaganda, only 1 is needed.

By the way, I really advice you to read Tompkins response so we can further continue this debate, knowing both sides of the letter so to say.

To help you on your way, here is the response from Tompkins:
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1450[/url]

This is the direct link to his letter:
[url]http://astro.temple.edu/~pericles/Letter.htm[/url]

Giorikas 07-13-2009 06:47 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;19492]Giorikas, I have no knowledge to how many and whom Risto has contacted of the signatories, BUT if he only contacted 1 of them and this person admitts to what Risto does state above doesnt that automatically jeopardize the whole validity of the letter?

You see there is no need to ask them all, all we need is one of the signatories, and everything falls apart.

From being a letter of protest to becoming a veichle of propaganda, only 1 is needed.

By the way, I really advice you to read Tompkins response so we can further continue this debate, knowing both sides of the letter so to say.

To help you on your way, here is the response from Tompkins:
[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1450[/url]

This is the direct link to his letter:
[url]http://astro.temple.edu/~pericles/Letter.htm[/url][/QUOTE]

Hmm. It makes a difference if someone keeps in the back of his head that he's (co) funded by Greece when asked to sign a letter, or whether he received active pressure. ( to protect his livelyhood as someone suggested here)

It sure makes a difference if this is only 1 Professor or all of them. I can't help it if someone fears being cut from funds so regardless what he would have done, he signs the letter.

It makes a difference finding out how many different profs from how many different universities we are actually talking about. I see a large number of different universities on that list and I have a hard time believeing that each single university programme programme on that list is sponsored by Greece to such an serious extent that they woiuld fear omitting their name from a list.

It makes also a difference whether these professors are paid personally off (as initially suggested by Risto the Great), or that they are part of a university programme that receives to a certain degree financial support from Greece. The second option is already much lighter then the first.

It certainly makes a difference if these 'facts' you brought to light are verifyable or not. Not being verifyable make your claims more gossip then something else.

Not to mention that it is very strange indeed that someone would confess that on paper to someone possibly on the other side of the world. You NEVER put these things in writing.

Now how much money do you suggest is pumped in all these programmes ? It should be huge sums eh ..

Will check your link sometime.

Risto the Great 07-13-2009 08:52 AM

Giorikas, I picked the most esteemed universities and contacted the professors. You saw the kind of letter I wrote I believe. It certainly generated responses with some useful replies. I can honestly tell you that they gave us some huge inspiration in the sense that the arguments were baseless and a trifle embarrassing for the professors. I can guarantee these professors will never meddle in this kind of nationalistic rubbish again. What does ancient history have to do with modern nations?

And by the way, remember .... THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. I thought I would remind you again. My people come from what is now called the province of West Macedonia in Greece. I am not confused by this. If you have a limited education, perhaps you could get that confused with the Republic of Macedonia. So I am yet to understand why there is even a debate about this nonsensical issue.

I am getting a little sick and tired of you commenting about things without reading appropriate links. Start with the Tompkins analysis. Read it and tell us what you disagree with. Stop being such an ignorant fool who ignores the opposing view. Remember, you don't come from Greece, you need as much help as possible to truly understand. And as yet another Diaspora Greek person, we all know you are typically the most deluded kind. So read the link, learn something and feel free to attack some little comment in the way you know best .... as annoying as a household pest (guess which one).

Giorikas 07-13-2009 10:15 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;19497]Giorikas, I picked the most esteemed universities and contacted the professors. You saw the kind of letter I wrote I believe. It certainly generated responses with some useful replies. I can honestly tell you that they gave us some huge inspiration in the sense that the arguments were baseless and a trifle embarrassing for the professors. I can guarantee these professors will never meddle in this kind of nationalistic rubbish again. What does ancient history have to do with modern nations?

And by the way, remember .... THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. I thought I would remind you again. My people come from what is now called the province of West Macedonia in Greece. I am not confused by this. If you have a limited education, perhaps you could get that confused with the Republic of Macedonia. So I am yet to understand why there is even a debate about this nonsensical issue.

I am getting a little sick and tired of you commenting about things without reading appropriate links. Start with the Tompkins analysis. Read it and tell us what you disagree with. Stop being such an ignorant fool who ignores the opposing view. Remember, you don't come from Greece, you need as much help as possible to truly understand. And as yet another Diaspora Greek person, we all know you are typically the most deluded kind. So read the link, learn something and feel free to attack some little comment in the way you know best .... as annoying as a household pest (guess which one).[/QUOTE]

Yes, I read again that THERE IS NO PROVINCE IN GREECE CALLED MACEDONIA. Now what's your point here? What's the relevance to the 340 or so PHD's that signed a letter? We are right now discussing about that. Not about where your people are from, and not about provinces in Greece.

Again, you did not provide any sort of concrete information, given the restriction that I will accept for now that you don't want to expose the, ehh, cockroaches once again as you called them before. (that you will use your pesticide on). There's a difference between exterminating cockroaches and protecting their anonymity ... but ok, we'll let that slip through knowing who said it.
Now once again, how many admitted that they were paid off by Greece and that did not support the letter? How many times do I need to ask you that question? How many were [I]not[/I] paid off ?

The Tomkins 'analysis' as you say is not the point here. I read it and I don't see the point to comment on that now. Normal that some will not support that letter. I expected nothing less. Now you position 1 Thomson analysis against 340 signatures and and I am taking 'the opposing view' ? Funny.

Actually, I don't know if you noticed but the [I]contents[/I] of that letter is not what we're discussing here. What I would like to demonstrate is that your initial statements are hot air, can not be proven and without substance. You are then asking me to take your word for something. Tricky. You were saying that 'The professors' are quite embarrased by it, suggesting that that applies to all or at least to a great number, when in fact you do not want to give us the number even. Is it 1 PHD ? 5? 10 ? 100 ? 340 ? Are you really going to think that anybody would believe that all these universities and/or all these professors are 'paid off' by Greece?
There's an awful lot of them. Why don't you take another break, and reality check too while you're at it..

Daskalot 07-13-2009 10:55 AM

Giorikas, I would like to point something out to you, Risto is referring to you as a cockroach, I do not mean to be disrespectful in any way, but that is how interpret his wordings.


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