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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Soldier of Macedon 10-21-2018 05:34 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;177410]Everyone has posted the names of the 8 traitors, 7 former DPMNE MP's and the 1 MP who was in their coalition, has anyone posted the names of the 73 other traitors - the ones who initiated this whole treasonous affair.[/QUOTE]
All MPs from SDS and the ethnic Albanian parties, which should make 69 votes. At least their treachery has always been transparent, unlike the psuedo-patriots from DPNE. And if it was only 8 from DPNE, who are the other 3 to make up the 80?

Phoenix 10-21-2018 05:49 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;177409]Why have they gone off the deep end? Russia recognises Macedonia by its true national name. Maintaining that recognition is a good gesture by the Russians and as a Macedonian I welcome it. As for the reference at the UN, both the current one (which Macedonia's leaders themselves had accepted for 30 pieces, and not at the instigation of Russia either) and soon to be new one are a sign of capitulation, with one of the main differences being that the current reference is supposedly provisional whereas the new reference will be set in stone, forever. Instead of the letter T it will probably be the letter R or letter N, and it will remain that way. Is that better? And if it is the letter M, which I doubt, does that make it any better, given the full reference?[/QUOTE]

I hope that's true...the Zaev government needs to be fucked around at the UN as much as possible after this...it would be nice for China to get in on the act as well...this is a good opportunity for Russia to highlight US and western meddling in the affairs of a foreign country...lol

Phoenix 10-21-2018 05:59 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;177410]Everyone has posted the names of the 8 traitors, 7 former DPMNE MP's and the 1 MP who was in their coalition, has anyone posted the names of the 73 other traitors - the ones who initiated this whole treasonous affair.[/QUOTE]

Each of those traitors must be named.

Furthermore, everyone of them must be declared persona non grata by every Macedonian organisation in the diaspora...I'm convinced many will eventually flee Macedonia to live in some diaspora community, they need to understand that they're not welcome.

Phoenix 10-21-2018 06:09 AM

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;177408]Has anyone seen big Georgi Ivanov..? he must be crapping his pants knowing he has to sign that treasonous document. He temporarily got out of signing off on the Tirana platform, unfortunately hes got know where to run on the name change now. I reckon hed be better off to resign.[/QUOTE]

I've seen a couple of articles claiming that the Macedonian constitution requires 81 votes in parliament for constitutional change to be valid, clearly others believe/understand 80 is the magic number, sadly this is Macedonia where these matters are fluid rather than set in concrete...

Perhaps Ivanov will refuse to sign off on the basis of his interpretation of the constitution...

Phoenix 10-21-2018 06:34 AM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;177398]MPs from VMRO-DPMNE and the coalition who voted for the beginning of the amendments to the Constitution [B]and[/B] [U]MPs from this party who wanted to vote on the amendments, but did not do so[/U] at the session of the Assembly, submitted written proposals that condition their behavior in the future process of constitutional changes.

URL:
[url]https://plusinfo.mk/%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8-%D0%B1%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%9A%D0%B0-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%BF%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%82%D0%B5-%D0%BD%D0%B0-%D0%B2%D0%BC%D1%80%D0%BE/[/url]

Ние, група пратеници со верба во Македонија и нејзината иднина, целосно свесни за историскиот момент и одговорност пред минатите, сегашните и идните генерации

ПРЕДЛАГАМЕ:

Да се пристапи во наредната, но не и конечна фаза, на дискусија по уставните амандмани, само под следните услови од чие исполнување ќе зависат и нашите идни ставови и нашата конечна поддршка за Уставните измени:

[B]1. Прифаќање на амандман на Уставот со кој ќе се гарантира македонскиот идентитет

2. Прифаќање на одредба на Уставот со која ќе се гарантира дека доколку Република Грција не го ратификува договорот и повторно ги попречува евро-атлантските интеграции на Република Македонија, ќе има безусловно поништување на сите прифатени уставни амандмани кои произлегуваат од имплементацијата на договорот од Преспа

3. Постепена промена на името за внатрешна употреба, следејќи го процесот што води кон полноправно членство на РМ во ЕУ

4. Прифаќање на иницијативата на Претседателот на Владата на Република Македонија г. Зоран Заев искажана на 61-та седница на Собранието на Република Македонија на 15 октомври 2018 година, за простување во врска со настаните на 27 април 2017 год. во Собранието на Република Македонија и сеопфатно национално помирување, со формирање на собраниско тело составено од шефовите на пратеничките групи, тројца пратеници и Претседателот на Собранието на Република Македонија кои ќе изготват и предложат до Собранието план за национално помирување, во рок од 30 дена.[/B]

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

We, a group of MPs with faith in Macedonia and its future, fully aware of the historical moment and responsibility of past, present and future generations

WE PROPOSE:

To approach the next, but not the final phase, of discussion on the constitutional amendments, only under the following conditions, from which fulfillment will depend our future attitudes and our final support for the Constitutional changes:

1. Accepting an amendment to the Constitution that guarantees the Macedonian identity

2. Acceptance of a provision of the Constitution that guarantees that if the Hellenic Republic does not ratify the treaty and again hinders the Euro-Atlantic integration of the Republic of Macedonia, there will be unconditional annulment of all accepted constitutional amendments arising from the implementation of the Prespa agreement

3. Gradual change of the name for internal use, following the process leading towards full membership of the Republic of Macedonia in the EU

4. Acceptance of the initiative of the President of the Government of the Republic of Macedonia Zoran Zaev expressed at the 61st meeting of the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia on October 15, 2018, for forgiveness of events on April 27, 2017 in the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia and a comprehensive national reconciliation, with the establishment of a parliamentary body composed of the heads of parliamentary groups, three MPs and the President of the Assembly of the Republic of Macedonia who will prepare and propose to the Parliament a plan for national reconciliation within 30 days.[/QUOTE]

That's another arse wiping 'document', just as credible as the gibberish that Zaev put together promising that he wouldn't implement any part of the Tirana platform, the ink hadn't dried on said document and Zaev was forcing the shiptar language law down Ivanov's throat...

The only document that matters is the one already singed by Dimitrov and that fat greek cunt that had the sense to run from office...Zaev and Co will push its implementation to the letter and they will probably make further future concessions to the greeks to make it happen...

In keeping with the 'strategic' planning of those clowns in Macedonia, everything is an afterthought, a half-arsed reaction to another check-mate position that they find themselves in...that document is merely a disingenuous attempt to feign a sense of control over the reality of the impending train wreck.

Risto the Great 10-21-2018 07:18 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;177410]Everyone has posted the names of the 8 traitors, 7 former DPMNE MP's and the 1 MP who was in their coalition, has anyone posted the names of the 73 other traitors - the ones who initiated this whole treasonous affair.[/QUOTE]
Much to my personal dismay, there are even people running around Australia pretending that VMRO DPMNE carries the torch for Macedonian liberty. They are quite obviously deluded and must be questioning their very existence at this point. Notwithstanding that, SDSm has never even tried to be the beacon for Macedonian liberty. In stark red and gold contrast, the maggots over at DrpajMeNE have duped as many people as possible by pretending to perpetuate the legacy of the great freedom fighters during the era of our strongest national movement.

Here, read this:
[url]http://www.minareport.com/2018/10/21/krsto-mukoski-from-singing-the-national-anthem-to-treason-2m/[/url]

Hilarious for anyone who isn't Macedonian! Plenty of those in Macedonia it would appear.

Carlin 10-21-2018 12:04 PM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;177409]Why have they gone off the deep end? Russia recognises Macedonia by its true national name. Maintaining that recognition is a good gesture by the Russians and as a Macedonian I welcome it. As for the reference at the UN, both the current one (which Macedonia's leaders themselves had accepted for 30 pieces, and not at the instigation of Russia either) and soon to be new one are a sign of capitulation, with one of the main differences being that the current reference is supposedly provisional whereas the new reference will be set in stone, forever. Instead of the letter T it will probably be the letter R or letter N, and it will remain that way. Is that better? And if it is the letter M, which I doubt, does that make it any better, given the full reference?[/QUOTE]

I'd be cautious of Russians and their "good gestures". The current reference is supposedly "provisional" - but for all intents and purposes it has functioned as a permanent one (and it will/may function and be used for many more years and decades to come). As a result, Russia, would be protecting this "provisional" reference at the UN, not the Constitutional name.

Anyway, let's not forget that Russia has its own interests and reasons why they recognize Macedonia under its Const. name (especially asserting that [I]Now[/I], after claiming they do not interfere in the name dispute). It's not so much of a [I]good gesture[/I] or a [I]principled stance[/I], although it may obviously appear that way - the main reason is that they don't want to see NATO expand further and absorb Macedonia (whereas the West / U.S. obviously do want Macedonia in NATO, and have stated that plainly).

To quote Richard Pine (from the article I posted on Oct. 17):

[I]"Greece and Macedonia, then as now, are the playthings of the superpowers manipulating relationships in the Balkans and the Levant."[/I]

Carlin 10-21-2018 01:10 PM

Zoran Zaev said that the requests of opposition MPs who voted positively to open the amendments to the Constitution are not an obstacle or a problem to upgrade the amendments to determine the final version of the constitutional changes, according to the Prespa agreement with Greece. Zaev believes that the requests of the eight lawmakers who submitted them before the vote in parliament will be incorporated into constitutional changes.

"We will sit down with the experts. I believe that they will be incorporated, because from what I have read in the requests, there are absolutely no obstacles or any problems, and I believe that they can be a good tool for us to collectively upgrade the changes, and for all of us to vote togehter on the final version of the constitutional changes," said Zaev.

URL:
[url]https://sdk.mk/index.php/naslovna/nema-prechki-baranata-na-opozitsiskite-pratenitsi-koi-glasaa-da-bidat-inkorporirani-vo-ustavnite-izmeni-kazha-zaev-vo-valandovo/[/url]

Carlin 10-21-2018 01:24 PM

[QUOTE=Phoenix;177414]I've seen a couple of articles claiming that the Macedonian constitution requires 81 votes in parliament for constitutional change to be valid, clearly others believe/understand 80 is the magic number, sadly this is Macedonia where these matters are fluid rather than set in concrete...

Perhaps Ivanov will refuse to sign off on the basis of his interpretation of the constitution...[/QUOTE]

DPMNE 'experts' grasping at straws.

An absolute majority of 120 is 61 (when the total is 120). If it's 60, it's not the majority - it's equal. To arrive at a majority, there should be at least one more person on one side, and at least one less than 60 on the other. The two-thirds majority is always calculated from the total. A two-thirds majority of 120 is when two-thirds of those 120, or 80 people are on one side, and 40 on the other.

Pelagonija 10-21-2018 03:50 PM

[QUOTE=Carlin15;177419]I'd be cautious of Russians and their "good gestures". The current reference is supposedly "provisional" - but for all intents and purposes it has functioned as a permanent one (and it will/may function and be used for many more years and decades to come). As a result, Russia, would be protecting this "provisional" reference at the UN[/QUOTE]

Regarding your concerns what exactly do you believe will be the consequence?


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