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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Vangelovski 03-02-2011 07:32 AM

[quote=Phoenix;91360]George, I would imagine a name change will be made official for international use, thereby places like Australia will adhere to the new name in all official correspondence.

The greater issue will be if Macedonia, having capitulated on the name will also capitulate on 'a name for all uses' scenario as envisaged and promoted by the greeks...this is where it will get particularly humiliating for the Macedonian's in Australia (i'm using Oz as an example).
Here in Australia, the politically connected, numerically and financially stronger greek lobby will insist that every object named 'Macedonian' today in Australia be renamed to whatever Gruevski & Co. sold to the greek side.

Slowly the greeks are stripping us of all dignity as a sovereign people, they've taken away our symbols, they're on the verge of renaming us and finally we will hand over our soul to them...not sure if anything matters after that...[/quote]
That will happen regardless of the 'extent' of the capitulation.

fyrOM 03-02-2011 08:43 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;91289]Ozimak, [B]do you even know who you're debating with?[/B] Your delusion is much further advanced than you think...[/QUOTE]

Are you alluding to having some high position and hence some privileged information and if so please share the title of your office and what this privileged information is which conclusively supports your position on the matter.

I have merely stated my interpretation of the facts…it is definite such a proposal was made without question and likewise it is definite it was rejected as are other points equally definite. I have not argued against the facts.

Many of the posts here sound like people think the suggested name change and possible referendum are a current act and a forgone conclusion…note it was a past suggestion which was rejected in the past and there is no current new proposal. It hasn’t happened and it aint over till its over. I cannot and will not say [I]give up[/I] and I don’t believe the government has either…delusional…maybe…but time will tell...this year and next...not far to go.

Vangelovski 03-02-2011 08:46 AM

[quote=OziMak;91378]Are you alluding to having some high position and hence some privileged information and if so please share the title of your office and what this privileged information is which conclusively supports your position on the matter.

I have merely stated my interpretation of the facts…it is definite such a proposal was made without question and likewise it is definite it was rejected as are other points equally definite. I have not argued against the facts.

Many of the posts here sound like people think the suggested name change and possible referendum are a current act and a forgone conclusion…note it was a past suggestion which was rejected in the past and there is no current new proposal. It hasn’t happened and it aint over till its over. I cannot and will not say [I]give up[/I] and I don’t believe the government has either…delusional…maybe…but time will tell...this year and next...not far to go.[/quote]

I was alluding to the fact that SoM wrote the post with the 2-3 options, NOT me. Once you get out of your bong-induced delusion, maybe you will be able to think more clearly.

Regardless, SoM is correct and you are WRONG.

fyrOM 03-02-2011 08:55 AM

[QUOTE=julie;91293]OM, you are an intelligent man
Am I one of a few that can see there is no turning back? We are doomed. With a capital F.[/QUOTE]

I can understand why you might think the current picture looks bad and I hope my comments might raise peoples hopes that it aint yet over bar the siren.

[QUOTE]please can you point me to what gives you the shred of hope, that you can see a positive outcome for us.[/QUOTE]

Julie I have previously stated elsewhere my reasoning as to why such an interpretation as the one presented in this thread has merit so without elaborating on the points to recap in brief…

The police and army where modernized and rearmed.

The government has been active in globe trotting persuading other countries to recognise RoM by her rightful name…we are upto 130 odd…does anyone know how many countries have recognized Macedonia since the government first took office.

The government has forged extensive foreign investment including securing the oil pipeline to go through Macedonia.

The government has made great effort to encourage and enable as many of the diaspora to get their citizenship and hence voting rights in order.

The government has spent and continues to spend large amounts on archeological digs.

The government has strengthened the economy extensively since first taking office and corrected many of the deficiencies left by the previous government…and they were vast.

The government has excelled encouraging and enabling the young to peruse a higher level of education.

The government has tackled corruption to a large extent.

The government has through their effort altered the image of Macedonia to the world as a forward and capable legal society concerned for the welfare of its citizens including minorities and thereby enhancing Macedonia’s credibility.

The government has brought the ICJ case to force entry into the eu and nato where most members already recognise Macedonia.

My interpretation of Gruevskis body language and conversation with Milenko on the Milenko show December 2009.

None of these actions say to me the government is going to capitulate…if they were then why not just do what Crvenkovski and Co did ie rob the place and get ready to piss off at the first opportunity instead of laying down roots.

fyrOM 03-02-2011 09:06 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;91380]Regardless, SoM is correct and you are WRONG.[/QUOTE]

Don’t beri gajle…March is here and April around the corner and before we know it Christmas and the results of the ICJ case. With the new year will bring the new actions. A year slips by very quickly. Time will tell. I truly hope you are wrong not for any personal ego trip but for what it means for our collective identity. If you are right Ill have a drink to commiserate.

Volk 03-02-2011 09:35 AM

[QUOTE=OziMak;91382]I can understand why you might think the current picture looks bad and I hope my comments might raise peoples hopes that it aint yet over bar the siren.



Julie I have previously stated elsewhere my reasoning as to why such an interpretation as the one presented in this thread has merit so without elaborating on the points to recap in brief…

The police and army where modernized and rearmed.

The government has been active in globe trotting persuading other countries to recognise RoM by her rightful name…we are upto 130 odd…does anyone know how many countries have recognized Macedonia since the government first took office.

The government has forged extensive foreign investment including securing the oil pipeline to go through Macedonia.

The government has made great effort to encourage and enable as many of the diaspora to get their citizenship and hence voting rights in order.

The government has spent and continues to spend large amounts on archeological digs.

The government has strengthened the economy extensively since first taking office and corrected many of the deficiencies left by the previous government…and they were vast.

The government has excelled encouraging and enabling the young to peruse a higher level of education.

The government has tackled corruption to a large extent.

The government has through their effort altered the image of Macedonia to the world as a forward and capable legal society concerned for the welfare of its citizens including minorities and thereby enhancing Macedonia’s credibility.

The government has brought the ICJ case to force entry into the eu and nato where most members already recognise Macedonia.

My interpretation of Gruevskis body language and conversation with Milenko on the Milenko show December 2009.

None of these actions say to me the government is going to capitulate…if they were then why not just do what Crvenkovski and Co did ie rob the place and get ready to piss off at the first opportunity instead of laying down roots.[/QUOTE]

OM, must of what you pointed out is debatable but there is also some truth there as well.

Either out of sheer stupidity or outright treason, the government has announced to the world that the best we can ever hope for is RM (skopje) - as a 'settlement'.

This is while greece argues that we are slavs, they are Macedonia and Macedonians, they own our history, symbols, ect..

What do they expect? the IC will say ok, you have been good... what do you get with that? a big fat fuck all, you only stand to lose, demoralize and spit on our nation...

fyrOM 03-02-2011 03:10 PM

The ICJ case as I understand it is not about deciding who is a Macedonian or not so if the government has made it known RoM Skopje was on the table at one time and was also rejected at that time it is not the courts business to force Greece to accept this name. the only issue before the court is has Macedonia made reasonable effort to find a solution ie upholding her part of the deal and has Greece prevented Macedonia entering any organisations even under fyrom solely because of not having reached a solution on the name issue ie upholding their part of the deal. That’s the be all and end all before the court.

One would think Greece’s veto is a clear breach yet Greece is claming they did not do the breach but instead it was other members who voted against Macedonia…I would guess they will put up cypress as the fall guy…a Greek by any other name.

The arguments from both sides will be interesting.

The question is can Macedonia get into the eu and nato even if it is as fyrom.
Domestically this will act as a release valve.
More importantly externally it removes Greece’s strangle hold in the name negotiation.

Risto the Great 03-02-2011 03:52 PM

What a useless thread.

Soldier of Macedon 03-02-2011 08:23 PM

[QUOTE="OziMak"]Many of the posts here sound like people think the suggested name change and possible referendum are a current act and a forgone conclusion....[/QUOTE]
The fact that Macedonia's name has been changed is already a foregone conclusion. Go to the UN and see how they refer to us. Some of our posters here don't seem to have the capacity to grasp this simple fact, and instead, are still trying to throw up excuses for traitors, like our 'leaders' aren't capable of further stupidity.
[QUOTE]The question is can Macedonia get into the eu and nato even if it is as fyrom.[/QUOTE]
Why would it want to? To cement our disgrace? Is that what you want, so it can enact the 'release valve' in Macedonia?

Risto the Great 03-02-2011 08:32 PM

I hadn't been to Maknews for many months but I had a slight conniption when I recently read some posts from some poorly guided Macedonians where they instantly commenced blaming SDSM for something about Milososki's letter to the UN.


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