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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Risto the Great 07-13-2010 01:52 AM

Based on the last [URL="http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3967"]poll[/URL] I would be calling 17.9% of Macedonians in Macedonia "stupid". I have never suggested everyone is stupid from there.

The pointless argument I was referring to was the issue of who migrated from Macedonia and who did not. If I follow your argument, I should perhaps be relegated to 3rd position in relation to Macedonia's future:

Ethnic Albanians first (legally backed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Macedonia second (legally allowed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Diaspora third (illegally interfering pesky trouble makers)

Bratot, we have to watch out for stupid Macedonians. They are everywhere ... even in the Republic.

Bratot 07-13-2010 02:11 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;63756]Based on the last [URL="http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=3967"]poll[/URL] I would be calling 17.9% of Macedonians in Macedonia "stupid". I have never suggested everyone is stupid from there.

[U]The pointless argument I was referring to was the issue of who migrated from Macedonia and who did not[/U]. If I follow your argument, I should perhaps be relegated to 3rd position in relation to Macedonia's future:

Ethnic Albanians first (legally backed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Macedonia second (legally allowed by stupid Macedonians)
Macedonians in Diaspora third (illegally interfering pesky trouble makers)

Bratot, we have to watch out for stupid Macedonians. They are everywhere ... even in the Republic.[/QUOTE]

[U]It's a matter of opinion, stereotypical views from both sides. [/U]
I'm always trying to reduce the destructive climate among us and as I said many times even if I don't agree with some of your opinions I will not leave you alone when you need my support.

Even the stupid Macedonians could be influenced by the stronger majority and the deceptive 'intelectuals' advocating for a name change will not survive in the public opinion if we put real pressure on them and confront them directly, every single poisonable text they release to be haunt down.
But we need such activity, we have let too much open space for them.

julie 07-13-2010 02:33 AM

Bratot, its the apathy and mentality of the people advocating name change I refer to as stupid, and will not retract from that. That is stupid.

I did not say all Macedonians are stupid. i know I can be stupid. I am a Macedonian
I am not going to argue my sentiments on the apathy and slave mentality, if I thought all were, I would not give a shit. I am frustrated with the group of Tito-ists, UMdists, serbomani, grkomani, and the ones that have no pride in themselves to deny their own blood. Rarely, like once in a blue moon will any one of those people ever see the light, and no amout of dialogue and discussion will alter their pathetic approach to denying their own existence or heritage. That is stupid.
The reason I say this , is no one in RoM has to look over their shoulder, or fear anyone crouching under a window, that if Macedonian was to be "whispered" in their own home, would they face the most serious repercussions. I can attest to this , an example from my mothers side of the family in Egeyskiot del.
These are the very people that revolted against the oppression at the time of the Gragaynskata Voyna. For those basic human rights that was denied to them to even be heard speaking Macedonian.
STUPID is some of these people with those basic human rights already in place - they can go to school and speak in Macedonia, they can go to Macedonian chrch services, they can freely do anything in Macedonian ,
These people advocating and in support of name change are short of a few marbles.
My father is from RoM, I have family from both sides there, first cousins etc and its the apathy that frustrates me, and the slave mentality, that is what is stupid.

Hopefully this clarifies

Bratot 07-13-2010 02:44 AM

Julie, with all respect to you but that was hardly visible when you wrote:

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by julie
Macedonians in Macedonia - nay budali prosti narod vo svetot[/QUOTE]

Anyway thank you for the clarification later, it's appreciated.

DedoAleko 08-10-2010 11:12 AM

The Macedonian dilemma: to change the name or not to change
 
The Macedonian dilemma: to change the name or not to change

Ireneusz A. Slupkov - 8/7/2010

The Macedonian state like any in the world has its dilemmas. Should this democratic state change its name and, thanks to a "European dictate" enter the European Union, or not accept this dictate and remain outside the Union?

Game of the European Union

The European Union acknowledges that Macedonia, more than any other country in the Western Balkans, at present meets, just as it did prior to the adoption of Romania and Bulgaria to the European Union, all the requirements for entry into the Union, but there is a "but." That "but" is that it must first change the name of the Republic of Macedonia into the Republic of Northern Macedonia or another name that is acceptable, and now attention- to Greece. Probably the majority of readers will ask why? Because Greece has a region that also has the name Macedonia. Paranoia? Yes, indeed, and the worst is that all of the governments of the countries in the EU know that, and so they accept that paranoia.

The will of a sovereign nation is not valid It does not matter that the Macedonians in a referendum Sept. 8, 1991 expressed their will as a sovereign state and that their country is to be called the Republic of Macedonia.

The European Union hides behind Greece like a little coward who is not only a coward but a hypocrite. Neither the Union nor the EU hypocrites, the politicians, diplomats and experts of all kinds considers it important that this is contrary to international law, and that this claim would be political suicide for the government of the Prime Minister of Macedonia Nikola Gruevski as indeed for any Western government. But what if the economically weak Macedonia can be moved by such a paranoid request? The hope is that strong pressure will eventually succeed. The most interesting thing is that this absurd demand comes from the "heralds of democracy" and "teachers" of the countries of Central Europe and the Balkans.

Rights for minorities in Western Europe

The fact that the EU states themselves have problems with the rights of minorities such as those in France (Alsatians, Basques, Bretons, Catalans, Corsicans, Provencals), in Greece (Macedonians, Pomaks, Turks, Roma) and Spain (the Basques, Galicians, Catalans and those who dwell in the Leon region), is of little interest to anyone in the Union. This is in essence the hypocrisy of the European Union - one set of rights for us and another set for others. And still the mentoring tone, for teaching all in the Union and those outside. The Irish referendum is the example of Europe's recognition of the will of the people.

You will be voting as long as it takes to get the vote the EU wants. And now the same request is put to Macedonia. We know that you're right but because of the fact that we are not a democratic EU federation of states and your country is too weak to oppose us directly, as Germany, France and the United Kingdom do, we will impose on you and the Serbs demands which that will break you, but then you
will be accepted.Ē

Macedonian dilemma

The Macedonian government now finds itself in a difficult situation. On the one hand Macedonians see their future in the Union. They still erroneously believe that it will be a new phase, which will increase their living standard and promote the economic development of the country. Wrong, because you need to have well-developed and competitive industries, which, unfortunately, Macedonia does not have.

Not recognizing the Macedonian nationís decision in naming their own state also does not bode well for the future, because if they do not recognize the state name now they will never recognize it in the future. While other EU countries will be able to redeem what they want, the sovereignty of Macedonia. Will have been weakened. Macedonia will become a colony or protectorate. But, of course, no one will acknowledge that the Union's policy is such in relation to Macedonia.

Changing the name-the political suicide

Changing the name would be political suicide not only for the current government, but for everyone else. Unfortunately, Macedonian opposition - the party of the former communists - SDSM is doing everything to accept the demand of the EU - read the Greek ultimatum to change the name. This party has a huge influence on the media (90%), which presents a vision of political hecatomb if Macedonia does not change its name and remain outside the Union.

On the other hand, a recent poll shows that 57% of the Macedonians refuse to accept the change. By contrast, 90% of the Albanians want the change in order to enter the Union, and thanks this change, they will be able to work freely and migrate to EU countries. Unfortunately, this is how different visions of the future of the state look in a multiethnic society. For some, Macedonian is a matter of self-identification and the historical past and for a second group, Albanians, it is a matter of self-interest rather than state interest, which for them is not regarded as the same as their own interest. Continual Albanian claims have led to political tension. Macedonians still feel the injustice of the international pressure which has granted disproportionate rights to Albanians.

This gives them disproportionate access to wealth and parity in all state institutions, and the recognition of the Albanian language as a second official language, while, in fact, Albanians constitute no more than about 18% of the population. Officially, they claim 22% to 25%, but this figure was overstated by the presence of Kosovars living in Macedonia, who did not leave Macedonia after the Albanian-Serb conflict. Does the European Union or the United States recognize minority languages as official languages? No, but Macedonia was forced to grant such recognition.

The entire set of policies of the European Union regarding the Macedonian state are legal and historical injustices against the Republic of Macedonia.

izvor: [url]http://www.globalpolitician.com/26551-macedonia[/url]

fyrOM 08-10-2010 11:57 AM

This is a good article. The more people who know of the injustices of the eu the greater the chance some minds might change. But also Macedonians should consider the possibility of not being in the eu at all if thatís what it takes.

Makedonetz 08-10-2010 05:16 PM

Those who want to change our name are what Goce Delcev mentioned all along.

"The one who works for joining of Macedonia to Bulgaria,Greece or Serbia can consider himself as a good Bulgarian, Greek or Serb, but not a good Macedonian"

Pelister 08-10-2010 09:10 PM

Greece is interested in only one thing. The political extermination of the Macedonian Republic. Thats what the negotiations are for, as I have said before. Obviously the Hellenic Republic can't invade Macedonia and it can't attack it militarily. The only thing it can do is get the Macedonians to commit political suicide, by first negotiating, and second, by putting it to a vote. In many ways the Macedonians have been deceived by their own greed, and by their own sense of insecurity.

The Macedonian leadership really need to realise something else. There has been a battle going on over the last century between two international principles, one, the principle of self determination or rights for people to chose who they want to govern them; and two, the right of conquest, or the principle of effective occupation which states that nations have the right to new territory 'won' in war. The battle between these two principles over supremacy in international law, has been brought to light through institutions such as the League of Nations, the United Nations, the E.U, NATO and others. What is evident is that the colonial legacy or the 'right of conquest' is dominating the global political scene. In fact the colonial legacy in this key region of the world is so amazingly dominant that it has convinced the Macedonians that putting the question of their political extinction to a vote is in fact an exercise in the princiople of self determination. It shows that even noble principles can be used in the ruthless suppression and oppression of people, and even their political extermination. What can be 'done', can be 'undone' by the same people, is the dream and the hope of our enemies.

The Macedonians need to realise that the status of its State and nation is secure, and that its status cannot be seriously threatened by anyone now.

The real issue behind the scenes is the issue of 'guilt' of accountability, but most of all of legal title. There are a number of critical problems with Greek title to Macedonian territory, in international law. The international community, is also aware of it.

The recognition or non-recognition of a Macedonian minority under Greek rule, is at the center of a storm, which could open a can of worms for Europe. Recognition and non-recognition is about 'title'. Who has it? Who had it? How was it taken away from one, and how did the other get it? As the original inhabitants of the territory, do the Macedonians have proper legal title to lost territory, because of the circumstances surrounding the events in 1913, and since then? Or, do the New Greeks have legal title, by of the principle of effective occupation, or right of conquest?

In this context, which side is Europe on? The Macedonina leader ought to have realised by now that they are under attack from European bureacracies (including the Greek Nation) that have had centuries to build themselves up around the acquisition of foriegn territory, and the conquest of a people.

But we have moral rights, and moral law on our side.

Fk the E.U, fk Greece.

fyrOM 08-11-2010 02:55 PM

[B]You have summed it up well Pelister. The eu nations do have their own conquered bits with original inhabitants which might get ideas if we succeed but we are starting from even further behind them and thatís one of the things that makes us scary.[/B]

In question is are we the original inhabitants or are we some people who have just been here a long time. Even how long is in question as I a sure you have heard accusations we became Macedonians in Titos Yugoslavia for his political interest. Imagine now if someone from this far behind succeeds and the minorities in the eu countries are already seen as establish ethnic identities. This is a scary scenario for the eu. With the open borders of the eu such minorities might just say why do we need to be governed by Spain or France ect which would directly affect taxation revenue.

The second scary thing out of a win for RoM as Macedonians and not Northern or something it instantly allows all Macedonians in the occupied parts to put their hand up and say me too. Even if egej did not break from Greece could you imagine the Greek parliament now made up of Greeks and many minorities. Inequities both legal and social would have to begin to erode as would also be the case in the other two occupied parts.

Even if RoM are saying they do not have aspirations on their neighbours land the domino effect could be devastating especially if you also take into consideration the Macedonians with old titles wanting their land back. To top it off many in the eu have said RoM is advanced enough to enter the eu. Having established themselves as Macedonians entry to the eu would be almost instant. These two things would open the path for many Macedonians in the diaspora who have accumulated wealth and business experience to invest in egej by themselves or in cooperation with Macedonians from the other parts of Macedonia in effect serving to unify Macedonia in a borderless eu.

This is scary enough without taking the extremely long term view that if Macedonians invest in this semi united borderless Macedonia and buy from each other and expand their land holdings over time could you imagine becoming not only the majority population in these parts but also majority land owners. Demands for semi autonomy could be made. Further still could they not just say lets form a referendum for uniting. If they let the flood gates open the process will be on its way. Anything they do to stem the flow will only lengthen the time. The only way to stop it is to make the Macedonians in RoM to be some other creature eg Northern ect. Then the minorities in the occupied parts have no leg to stand on.

This is not pie in the sky or vapor with no substance because given the right environment even vapour can solidify for you to walk on. This is the scary part. The natural advantages Macedonia has both geographic and climate are still there. Geographically we are still a stones throw from Europe and Asia. China has already said they want to invest technology industries in RoM if they became part of he eu. I
Isnít Macedonia ideally positioned as a transport hub for both west and middle east Russia and Africa.. Egej has great tourist locations and abundance of rich agricultural land. Food production is going to become an even more important commodity and increase in value as the worlds population grows. Think of the revenues from these streams alone and they are by no means the limit of Macedoniaís potential. Macedonians have grown up in the western world and have money and business knowledge to invest in Macedonia. The only limiting factor has been what they have been allowed to do. All of this hangs on establishing a Macedonian identity. It so happens RoM is the most free of all the parts and has the greatest chance of establishing a Macedonian identity. This is why Greece and her supporters are going strong against RoM.

One of the reasons for creating Greece and extending Greece over Macedonia was to safeguard the westís greatest asset the Suez canal and thwarting the Slavic communist hordes or the Muslim world. Today RoM is an ally of the west and actively if not legitimately part of nato. This and the good governance shown in RoM has shown Macedonia can be a good partner to the west and consequently diminishes the value of Greece. Only if the west was able to see this in the past history would have been totally different. This realisation today may change minds in Europe to accept Macedonia by her rightful name. This could unleash the process described above.

The question they have is although it will still be good for the west do they want to deal with the process when maybe RoM will give in and the land and people of Macedonia are still in the hands of the west without having to deal with the process. I think the west are assessing which scenario will be for their best overall benefit. Remember the article where the first us negotiator is now saying RoM should not concede one point to Greece.

They know it will be good and I dare say better for the west if they allow Macedonians to establish the recognition of their identity. Why. Because a happy local population will work harder and better and if you benefit from this work then you get more. Also the investment from the diaspora is hampered by the difficulties placed by Greece. Low investment lower benefits for the west. They are realising Macedonia as a strong ally of the west makes economic political and strategic sense. I think they are waiting to see can they get the benefits without having to do it and can they invest their fingers in this emerging yummy pie. Eg ecm power to the Austrians and telecom to the Germans ect. The question of our identity cannot go on forever. The west are risking conflict and or stifled investment in Macedonia and the westís revenue streams from there. It is a case of wait it out if RoM will buckle in a short enough time.

The eus reasons are one thing Greeceís reasons involve not only economics but pride and stubbornness and the latter two points are just as hard to shift as the first. Greece is economically down and the eu is bleeding to support her. This is why I have said in the past that this is a historical opportunity Macedonians should not miss. Imagine Greece doesnít get revenue from tourism then it will be a longer and deeper bleeding of the eu. Have you noticed the adds on Australian TV for the getaway special promoting a Greek holiday. Coincidence. The sinking of Greece will hasten the eu to tell Greece to grow up quit your wining and accept there is a lot of evidence the Macedonians are THE Macedonians as is let alone if they find something in the archaeological digs and everything being done now ends up being a waste of time and money.

Can we make people not go to Greece. Maybe our own letters to the editor or radio talk back particularly on the dirty Greece has done on the west just might make westerners resent going there. In any event I would enjoy seeing Greece squirm.

TrueMacedonian 08-12-2010 02:30 PM

[QUOTE=Pelister;66868]Greece is interested in only one thing. The political extermination of the Macedonian Republic. Thats what the negotiations are for, as I have said before. Obviously the Hellenic Republic can't invade Macedonia and it can't attack it militarily. The only thing it can do is get the Macedonians to commit political suicide, by first negotiating, and second, by putting it to a vote. In many ways the Macedonians have been deceived by their own greed, and by their own sense of insecurity.[/QUOTE]

This is truly stated Pelister.

Ireneusz A. Slupkov wrote a good book I recommend everyone reading (there are some histroical mistakes but its otherwise good) [url]http://books.google.com/books?id=VUMvAAAAYAAJ&q=Ireneusz+A.+Slupkov&dq=Ireneusz+A.+Slupkov&hl=en&ei=KE5kTM_3A4OdlgfhpoDODA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA[/url]


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