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-   -   The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=17)

Soldier of Macedon 09-03-2008 07:26 AM

The Real Ethnic Composition of Modern Greece
 
[B][U]Athens[/U][/B]

This question has been asked several times, and should be addressed properly once and for all. While I will agree that pockets of Romaic-speakers lived in what were to become the domains of the modern 'Hellenic' state and elsewhere in the Balkans, particularly where it concerns the main trading areas (where as it so happens the Romaic tongue was the lingua franca of trade) and cities, the number of these people steadily increased in other areas due to the prohibition of Slavic and Latin languages in churches and schools from the second half of the 18th century. So it is not suprising that come the 19th century western travellers and writers speak about so-called 'Greeks' forming large bulks of the population in the region, although the people of other 'origins' were not by and large ignored either, as they are so blindly today.

In the early 19th century John Cam Hobhouse, quoted by John Freely, wrote that "[I][B]the number of houses in Athens is supposed to be between twelve and thirteen hundred; of which about four hundred are inhabited by the Turks, the remainder by the Greeks and [U]Albanians, the latter of whom occupy above three hundred houses[/U][/B][/I]."

During the mid 19th century, Edmond About wrote that "[B][I][U]Athens, twenty-five years ago, was only an Albanian village[/U]. The [U]Albanians[/U] formed, and still form, [U]almost the whole of the population of Attica[/U]; and within three leagues of the capital, villages are to be found where Greek is hardly understood.........[U]Albanians form about one-fourth of the population of the country[/U]; they are in majority in Attica, in Arcadia, and in Hydra[/I][/B]...."

[url]http://books.google.com.au/books?hl=en&id=9wCiFSLmEM4C&dq=Edmond+About,+Greece+and+the+Greeks+of+the+Present+Day&printsec=frontcover&source=web&ots=twsww8l0GN&sig=NJry-7Znriz6nevZwbpxkLU2iL0&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result[/url]


Just for a start.

osiris 09-03-2008 11:56 PM

mate they were still speaking albanian in the villages around lavrion when i was a kid in the refugee camp there in the mid 50s. but as you well know som reality and truth are not neo hellenic strong points, bullshit denial and oppression of minorites is what modern hells arse excells in. if our people in egei were considered greek because they supported the patriachist church as they had for centuries, then it must have been even easier 100 years earlier to convince the albanians and vlachs they were really pure hellenes who happened to forget their language and hellenic conciousness, despite the fact that apaprently there we re heroic secret schools in every village keeping the langauge and hellenic identity alive.

we have spoken about the lies and inconsistencies of the modern greek narrative, to no avail, when you want to be stupid and ignorant its easy especially when you are basking in the legacy of the glorious ancient hellenes. to be true to your more modest and historically insignificant ethnic reality is a bitter pill which only the very strong and brave are able to swallow, and we all know modern greeks are neither strong nor brave, but wannabe somebodies basking in the glory of periclean athens and leonidian sparta

Daskalot 09-04-2008 02:46 AM

I would like to hear what our newly arrived southern neighbors have to say about this?

osiris 09-04-2008 03:43 AM

dont hold your breath daskale, our once a wannabe always a wannabe, i have only met a handful of modern greeks who can handle their truth, the rest .......you know the answer as well as i do.

Daskalot 09-04-2008 04:08 AM

[QUOTE=osiris;244]dont hold your breath daskale, our once a wannabe always a wannabe, i have only met a handful of modern greeks who can handle their truth, the rest .......you know the answer as well as i do.[/QUOTE]

I know Osiris, but this crowd feels so new and hipp..... :)

Rogi 09-04-2008 04:40 AM

[I]“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”[/I]

- Albert Einstein's definition of insanity.

Makedonia 09-04-2008 02:00 PM

[QUOTE=Rogi;262][I]“The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”[/I]

- Albert Einstein's definition of insanity.[/QUOTE]


[I]"It is only the wisest and the stupidest that cannot change."[/I]

Confucius

Jankovska 09-04-2008 03:10 PM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;332][I]"It is only the wisest and the stupidest that cannot change."[/I]

Confucius[/QUOTE]

And Greece has proven to be everything but wise...

Makedonia 09-04-2008 03:47 PM

[QUOTE=Jankovska;349]And Greece has proven to be everything but wise...[/QUOTE]

That remains to be seen.

Jankovska 09-04-2008 04:02 PM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;354]That remains to be seen.[/QUOTE]


It has been I thought, or you just what you want to see.

Makedonia 09-04-2008 05:15 PM

[QUOTE=Jankovska;360]It has been I thought, or you just what you want to see.[/QUOTE]

Maybe you didn't think.

fatso 09-04-2008 05:20 PM

Albanian pockets were evident throughout Greece. Naftpleon was Greece's capitol initially because it had very few non Greeks residing in and around it.
Greeks , just like Turks, Albs, and Slavs are scattered throughout the Balkans.

Don't take the term Slav's personally, I'm only referring to Serb, Croats, Mak's and Bulgars.

I have indicated before ...Greece's make up and it's purity. I have been banned from Greek forums , the boy's over @ SerbHellenic forum do tolerate me.:D

Jankovska 09-04-2008 05:44 PM

A country that claims purity is a country that is equal to Hitler's NAzi Germany.

fatso 09-04-2008 05:51 PM

This is what the Greek government wants its citizens to believe......total rubbish.

Makedonia 09-04-2008 05:54 PM

I disagree with the notion that the Greek government is claiming purity.

Jankovska 09-04-2008 05:56 PM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;401]I disagree with the notion that the Greek government is claiming purity.[/QUOTE]

Really? So you do have Macedonian, Turkish, Vlach, Albanian minorities?

Makedonia 09-04-2008 06:00 PM

[QUOTE=Jankovska;402]Really? So you do have Macedonian, Turkish, Vlach, Albanian minorities?[/QUOTE]
The Greek government acknowledges that there are people living in Greece, from all over the world.

What it does not recognise is the minority status of these peoples.

Jankovska 09-04-2008 06:04 PM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;406]The Greek government acknowledges that there are people living in Greece, from all over the world.

What it does not recognise is the minority status of these peoples.[/QUOTE]

Hm and I thought the Greek Gov only recently said there are not MAcedonians living in Greece. Have I missed something

Makedonia 09-04-2008 06:27 PM

[QUOTE=Jankovska;409]Hm and I thought the Greek Gov only recently said there are not MAcedonians living in Greece. Have I missed something[/QUOTE]

Yes you have missed something.

The Greek Government acknowledges there are 2.5 million Macedonians living in what it calls Makedonia (northern Greece).

It cannot and does not recognise these Macedonians as a minority group as they are the majority.

Risto the Great 09-04-2008 06:59 PM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;418]Yes you have missed something.

The Greek Government acknowledges there are 2.5 million Macedonians living in what it calls Makedonia (northern Greece).

It cannot and does not recognise these Macedonians as a minority group as they are the majority.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm, there are 36 million Californians living in California, they are the majority .... what the?

Pelister 09-04-2008 09:01 PM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;406]The Greek government acknowledges that there are people living in Greece, from all over the world.

What it does not recognise is the minority status of these peoples.[/QUOTE]

From a legal point of view, it recognizes know one unless they are Greeks by genus.

From a historical point of view, it recognizes known one as [I]a separate [/I]ethnic group. To overcome this problem the Modern Greek state have managed to morph the ethnic Albanians, Vlachs and more recently, Macedonians into some kind of a 'Greek'.

It has robbed and stealed from the ethnic Macedonians for the better part of a century. It legitimizes its invasion of Macedonia today on a number of historical assumptions, one being, that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks, two, that Macedonia was always Greek, and three, that people who were setttled in Northern Greece during the 1920's are the real Macedonians (it doesn't matter that they have no history in Macedonia before this date).

Makedonia 09-04-2008 11:42 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;430]Hmmm, there are 36 million Californians living in California, they are the majority .... what the?[/QUOTE]

Precisely.

These Californians are Americans, not a group claiming minority status and recognition. They are not ethnic Californians, living in an occupied America.

Draw the parallels and you will start to see the Greeks' logic.

Risto the Great 09-05-2008 12:23 AM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;464]Precisely.

These Californians are Americans, not a group claiming minority status and recognition. They are not ethnic Californians, living in an occupied America.

Draw the parallels and you will start to see the Greeks' logic.[/QUOTE]
Precisely, the Californians are AMERICANS. I have never met anyone from the USA who calls themselves CALIFORNIAN or whatever State they come from. They might do it with other Americans. Are Greeks that egocentric that they honestly believe it to be appropriate to introduce themselves as being form a region of Greece without mentioning Greece itself.

Hi, my name is Kostas, I am Kozanian ... :rolleyes:? (Says Kostas to the rest of the world who don't know shit about Greece)

So, precisely what are you talking about?

Makedonia 09-05-2008 01:32 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;469]Precisely, the Californians are AMERICANS. I have never met anyone from the USA who calls themselves CALIFORNIAN or whatever State they come from. They might do it with other Americans. Are Greeks that egocentric that they honestly believe it to be appropriate to introduce themselves as being form a region of Greece without mentioning Greece itself.

Hi, my name is Kostas, I am Kozanian ... :rolleyes:? (Says Kostas to the rest of the world who don't know shit about Greece)

So, precisely what are you talking about?[/QUOTE]

Hypothetical example,

I have never met a person who self identifies as an ethnic Californian.

I have met a Californian from the United States of America though.

But if I did meet a person who self identifies as an ethnic Californian, does one have the right to reject this identity if the accepted norm is that no such Californian ethnicity exists?

osiris 09-05-2008 01:47 AM

makedonia masturbation should be confined to the privacy of your own space , and not on this forum.

Risto the Great 09-05-2008 01:56 AM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;474]But if I did meet a person who self identifies as an ethnic Californian, does one have the right to reject this identity if the accepted norm is that no such Californian ethnicity exists?[/QUOTE]
Is he an ethnic Californian or an ethnic American?
If he wants to be an ethnic Californian, he will attempt to secede from the USA and insist on no longer being called an American.

How does this help you?

Pelister 09-05-2008 02:12 AM

Makedonia, this topic is about the ethnic composition of Ottoman and Modern Greece.

I would ask you to try to stick to the topic. If you have any information on this subject, I encourage you to post it.

Risto the Great 09-05-2008 02:19 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;479]Makedonia, this topic is about the ethnic composition of Ottoman and Modern Greece.

I would ask you to try to stick to the topic. If you have any information on this subject, I encourage you to post it.[/QUOTE]
Nah Pelister, he was just being polite about negating our identity.
I am willing to entertain it because he is digging a very deep one at the moment.

Daskalot 09-05-2008 02:27 AM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;418]Yes you have missed something.

The Greek Government acknowledges there are 2.5 million Macedonians living in what it calls Makedonia (northern Greece).

It cannot and does not recognise these Macedonians as a minority group as they are the majority.[/QUOTE]

You do see the lies you are being fed by your government, 2.5 million would constitute a very sizable minority within Greece, but if the recognize these regional Greeks as a Macedonian minority, further down the line they might say, hey we are Macedonians we live in Macedonia, we do not want Greece......

Risto the Great 09-05-2008 02:30 AM

[QUOTE=Daskalot;485]You do see the lies you are being fed by your government, 2.5 million would constitute a very sizable minority within Greece, but if the recognize these regional Greeks as a Macedonian minority, further down the line they might say, hey we are Macedonians we live in Macedonia, we do not want Greece......[/QUOTE]
And continuing with this little dream ... since the gifted section of Greece (Macedonia) supplies all of the food and electricity to the rest of Greece, they would be able to dictate some very important commands.

Allow me to plant the first seed of discontent. ;)

Pelister 09-05-2008 02:33 AM

Behind all of this is the myth of cultural and historical homogeneity.

There may be a nation of Greeks today, but explore their roots, which is the whole point of this topic, and you will find that they do not share a common culture, they do not share a common language, or even a common history.

This topic is about the HISTORICAL ROOTS of modern Greeks. Who are they really?

The more evidence we have of this, the better.

Makedonia 09-05-2008 04:38 AM

[quote=Risto the Great;477]Is he an ethnic Californian or an ethnic American?
If he wants to be an ethnic Californian, he will attempt to secede from the USA and insist on no longer being called an American.

How does this help you?[/quote]

Yes, he can attempt to secede, but has to be willing to accept the consequences if his secession attempts fail and not play the victim when he gets his arse kicked.

Understand?

Risto the Great 09-05-2008 09:44 AM

[QUOTE=Makedonia;492]Yes, he can attempt to secede, but has to be willing to accept the consequences if his secession attempts fail and not play the victim when he gets his arse kicked.

Understand?[/QUOTE]
So if I apply this analogy to the people [B]you[/B] describe as Macedonians in Northern Greece, you would say that they should not play the victim when they get their arses kicked by the Southern Greeks??? In other words, the majority Macedonians you described in an earlier post who represent the majority in the region are willing to separately self identify as Macedonians instead of as Greeks.

I am merely trying to understand the dribble you have posted earlier.

If this is the case, I am willing to help your troubled friends in Makedonia. Tell them to call me, I have a plan. ;)

Soldier of Macedon 09-05-2008 10:40 AM

There is a difference between a regional Macedonian and an ethnic Macedonian. Most regional Macedonians in Greece, this so-called group of "2.5 million", are imported Christians from Asia that arrived on European soil about 80 years ago. This is a fact.

An ethnic Macedonian has but one native and ancestral home, and it is not in Asia. Macedonia is their land, their culture, their language, their heritage. This truth cannot be denied.

The Greek state and its politicians live in a fairytale full of falsities which will not last forevever.

toothpaste 09-05-2008 10:47 AM

It's stupid for anyone to claim ethnic purity in the Balcans..
that goes for both Greeks and Macedonians.

Soldier of Macedon 09-05-2008 10:52 AM

[QUOTE=toothpaste;559]It's stupid for anyone to claim ethnic purity in the Balcans..
that goes for both Greeks and Macedonians.[/QUOTE]
Very true, as it is equally stupid for one Balkan nation (Gr) to deny another's (Mk) right to self-determination based on this sort of stupidity.

toothpaste 09-05-2008 10:57 AM

I think both of them want a copyright of a long lost ancient nation...

Soldier of Macedon 09-05-2008 11:37 AM

I don't think so. What relevance has that comment to do with the topic at hand anyway? How does it get from racial composition of [U]modern[/U] Greece to claims of ancient lineage? Lets stay on topic.

200,000-250,000 in the total of about 1,000,000 were Albanians in Modern Greece after she gained independence, a quarter of the population.

How many of the other 700,000-750,000 do you think were Latin, Slavic, Gypsy and other linguistic groups?

fatso 09-05-2008 01:23 PM

Greece's tactics in friendly assimilation have been one Turkey is following. Greeks from the south get drafted and do their service on the islands or up north. Greek's or Mak's from the north do their service in the south.

The use of Golden Dawn and other anarchy or neo nazi groups are protected by the government. American reporters exposed a link between November 17th and the PASOK party a few years before the Olympics.

Greece is a new Democratic country with an uncut Ambilicol cord from previous Balkan regimes.

toothpaste 09-06-2008 01:03 AM

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;570]I don't think so. What relevance has that comment to do with the topic at hand anyway? How does it get from racial composition of [U]modern[/U] Greece to claims of ancient lineage? Lets stay on topic.

200,000-250,000 in the total of about 1,000,000 were Albanians in Modern Greece after she gained independence, a quarter of the population.

How many of the other 700,000-750,000 do you think were Latin, Slavic, Gypsy and other linguistic groups?[/QUOTE]

Here is what historians and ethnologist wrote on the matter.

Johann Georg von Hahn (father of “albanology”) concludes the total number of 173.000 Arbanites in Greece in 1854 (Albaneische Studien,1854).
(total population of Greece [B]1.096.810[/B])
After Hahn’s own corrections he finally comes to the number of [B]158.000[/B].(he has done some mistakes abt Fokis and Spercheios areas)

Alfred Philipsson, after touring Peloponese in 1889 ,counted 90.253 Arbanites in this area (730.000 total) .(9.5%)
As for the total number he considers it was 224.000 in a total of 2.187.208 (that’s 10%) (zur ethnographic des Peloponnes,pettersmans mittelingen,1890)

The same year dr.Koryllos in “Ethnography of Peloponnese” concludes 71.037 Arbanites for the Peloponnese ( 7%)

All these numbers of course don’t reflect the ex-greek speaking populations assimilated by the Arbanites in the areas they covered after their arrival in Greece.

Also note that the number of Arbanites in the areas that left out of the Greek kingdom in 1830 (thats all central and northern Greece as well as most of the islands and Crete) was close to zero , making the total percentage of their population really low in building of the modern Greek nation.


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