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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Soldier of Macedon 09-07-2008 06:36 AM

Go to post#72 to realise that the written tongue was referred to as Romeika.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 06:47 AM

I was speaking to him and since we both were answering to each other I just assumed he or would follow the debate from the start.I don't have to consistently write the same line when I've already referred to in an earlier post.

Soldier of Macedon 09-07-2008 06:54 AM

You are talking out of your ass and have run out of excuses to justify your worthless line of parroting. This is usually what happens when you spend your time lying.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 06:56 AM

Now I'm lying??How did you work that one out sir?

Soldier of Macedon 09-07-2008 07:02 AM

Ok, this will be the last time I or anybody else will have to repeat themselves to you, and then you are gone. If you give us anymore idiotic remarks, you are gone.

Danail of Moschopolis in his four language dictionary termed the written language as ROMEIKA. This proves you are lying and your claims are false.

Run another circle, I dare you to..........

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 08:21 AM

Ok according to Britanica Romaic language is what we call Demotic.

[B]Demotic Greek language[/B]
also called Romaic , Greek Demotiki ,
or Romaiki
a modern vernacular of Greece. In modern times it has been the standard spoken language and, by the 20th century, had become almost the sole language of Greek creative literature. In January 1976, by government order, it became the official language of the state, replacing Katharevusa Greek as the language for governmental and legal documents, in the courts and Parliament, in the schools, and in newspapers and other publications. (Katharevusa continued to be used in some legal documents and other technical writings in which there was a large body of established literature.)

Daskalot 09-07-2008 12:56 PM

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;1227]Ok according to Britanica Romaic language is what we call Demotic.

[B]Demotic Greek language[/B]
also called Romaic , Greek Demotiki ,
or Romaiki
a modern vernacular of Greece. In modern times it has been the standard spoken language and, by the 20th century, had become almost the sole language of Greek creative literature. In January 1976, by government order, it became the official language of the state, replacing Katharevusa Greek as the language for governmental and legal documents, in the courts and Parliament, in the schools, and in newspapers and other publications. (Katharevusa continued to be used in some legal documents and other technical writings in which there was a large body of established literature.)[/QUOTE]

The definition that you give us is a definition created today and not the way the language was defined when Danil of Moschopolis lived,

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 06:29 PM

But the Romaic language was never written........It was the language of the little people wheras katharevousa was the language of the educated the elite.It didn't work becasue like anything else languages evolve we can't speak the same language that Shakespear spoke 500 years ago can we?We'll never be able to understand him.

Risto the Great 09-07-2008 06:38 PM

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;1292]katharevousa was the language of the educated the elite.It didn't work becasue like anything else languages evolve we can't speak the same language that Shakespear spoke 500 years ago can we?We'll never be able to understand him.[/QUOTE]

Much less 2000 years ago. Yet no other country tried to do the same thing I believe. Maybe the Jews??? But they will soon forget their Yiddish and consequently, identity.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 06:39 PM

Yiddish isn't a written language either RTG.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 06:40 PM

It's a hotch potch of Hebrewnised words into slavic words.......It's more a slang type of oral language.

Risto the Great 09-07-2008 06:41 PM

Could've been if it was given a chance.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 07:08 PM

They still speak Yiddish the European Jews.....

El Bre 09-07-2008 07:28 PM

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;1299]It's a hotch potch of Hebrewnised words into slavic words.......It's more a slang type of oral language.[/QUOTE]

Actually it's a Germanic language.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 07:35 PM

I was under the impression it was Polish/Russian??You may be right...

El Bre 09-07-2008 07:36 PM

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;1298]Yiddish isn't a written language either RTG.[/QUOTE]

Who told you that?

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 07:36 PM

Yes yr spot on my mistake......

Yiddish (ייִדיש yidish or אידיש idish, literally "Jewish") is a nonterritorial High German language, spoken throughout the world but, unlike other such languages, is written with the Hebrew alphabet.

The language originated in the Ashkenazi culture that developed from about the 10th century in the Rhineland and then spread to central and eastern Europe and eventually to other continents. In the earliest surviving references to it, the language is called לשון־אַשכּנז (loshn-ashkenaz = "language of Ashkenaz") and טײַטש (taytsh, a variant of tiutsch, the contemporary name for the language otherwise spoken in the region of origin, now called Middle High German; compare the modern New High German Deutsch). In common usage, the language is called מאַמע־לשון (mame-loshn, literally "mother tongue"), distinguishing it from biblical Hebrew and Aramaic, which are collectively termed לשון־קודש (loshn-koydesh, "holy tongue").

The term "Yiddish" did not become the most frequently used designation in the literature of the language until the 18th century. For a significant portion of its history, Yiddish was the primary spoken language of the Ashkenazi Jews and once spanned a broad dialect continuum from "Western Yiddish" to three major groups within "Eastern Yiddish." Eastern and Western Yiddish are most markedly distinguished by the extensive inclusion of words of Slavic origin in the Eastern dialects. While Western Yiddish has few remaining speakers, Eastern dialects remain in wide use. Yiddish is written and spoken as a living language in many Orthodox Jewish communities around the world. It is most notably used as a first language in most Hasidic communities, where it is the first language learned in childhood and used in home, schooling, and many social settings.

The general history and status of the Yiddish language are discussed below, with further detail provided in a series of separate articles on:

osiris 09-07-2008 07:39 PM

truth bearer the greek language did not survive as a majority peoples language in greece it was ressurected and imposed on the albanian valch and slav speaking populations.

it survived as a language because it was the church language and spoken by a very small albeit wealthy and influential minority of christian people within the ottoman empire, and in tiny insignificnat pockets in calabria and sicily.

you are perpetuating a neo greek myth that doesnt reflect the reality on the ground in greece and the majority christian population in the ottoman empire pre the establishment of the neo greek state in 1824. now if for some personal psychological need to have to believe that bullshit, thats ok , but stop posting such crap as historical truth on this forum, maybe you can get away with that shit in neo greek cyberland but not here.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 07:40 PM

[QUOTE=osiris;1308]truth bearer the greek language did not survive as a majority peoples language in greece it was ressurected and imposed on the albanian valch and slav speaking populations.

it survived as a language because it was the church language and spoken by a very small albeit wealthy and influential minority of christian people within the ottoman empire, and in tiny insignificnat pockets in calabria and sicily.

you are perpetuating a neo greek myth that doesnt reflect the reality on the ground in greece and the majority christian population in the ottoman empire pre the establishment of the neo greek state in 1824. now if for some personal psychological need to have to believe that bullshit, thats ok , but stop posting such crap as historical truth on this forum, maybe you can get away with that shit in neo greek cyberland but not here.[/QUOTE]


So then I ask you how come you people today don't speak GREEK???

El Bre 09-07-2008 07:42 PM

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;1310]So then I ask you how come you people today don't speak GREEK???[/QUOTE]

Many of us do, and many of us have also adopted a Greek conciousness and have become the the erstwhile descendants of Atalanta.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 07:50 PM

According to yr theories since the Greek language dissapeared and only a few elite spoke it how come I speak it and you don't?Yes you may as you must be from Florina region but why hasn't the language survived in the north central Balkans?

osiris 09-07-2008 07:53 PM

truth bearer many macedoniasn speak greek but apart from the ones in egei in the past 50 years , none of them learned it as their native language learned form the mothers as you put it, they learned it because they were forced too. now stop this nonsense.

Truth Bearer 09-07-2008 07:57 PM

Really?/Ok lets see how many from the Republic speak Greek??Why don't we find out and I bet you noone ever did unless yr referring to the Vlachs that stayed behind after the Balkan Wars........

osiris 09-07-2008 08:05 PM

believe what you want.

Struja 09-07-2008 08:14 PM

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;1320]Really?/Ok lets see how many from the Republic speak Greek??Why don't we find out and I bet you noone ever did unless yr referring to the Vlachs that stayed behind after the Balkan Wars........[/QUOTE] tell me TB, how many greeks were there in the republic after the balkan wars? with facts and links please.

El Bre 09-07-2008 08:22 PM

[QUOTE=Truth Bearer;1315]According to yr theories since the Greek language dissapeared and only a few elite spoke it how come I speak it and you don't?Yes you may as you must be from Florina region but why hasn't the language survived in the north central Balkans?[/QUOTE]

In a way you answered your own question. The revival had a starting point and subsequently radiated outward incorporating various other non Greek peoples in it's wake. It's influence fizzled the further it was from it's epicentre.

Soldier of Macedon 09-24-2008 04:40 AM

How will the 'name game' end?
 
At the moment it is difficult to determine how things will go, the circumstances seem to be changing daily, support in the Balkans is with Macedonia although recently Albania has bent over for their Greek masters. The U.S, Russia and China recognize us, this holds value in itself, but with recent pro-Greek reports and Obama's apparent stance against Macedonians (or for Greeks) things can also change there where it concerns the Americans, although all is speculation at the moment.

Now Crvenkovski is apparently leading the talks from Macedonia's end, a known sellout and fool reputed for his bad decision making in the past, and one who has already made it clear that he is for a name change.

Will the Macedonian government submit and change the constitutional name? I don't believe they will. Many say that we should pull out of the negotiations altogether, and I tend to agree in many respects, but what are the consequences of this, will Macedonia then lose the battle by default and allow Greece to have a free reign of influence in the international arena? Politics is never that easy, it is a difficult game we are in.

We have held our own for a while now, and haven't faltered, albeit damage has been done already by past governments. My opinion is with most Macedonians, no name change, no more concessions, if anything, let's take some back. However, hypothetically speaking, if something must be done and we are left with no option, then what could it be? A name for bi-lateral use with Greece such as Upper Macedonia? Will we accept this? Are we going to seek anything in return, like the recognition of our people and language in both Macedonia and Greece by the native Macedonian name?

What actual benefits do we have by joining the EU and NATO? Whatever they are, nothing is worth our name and identity, nothing.

I guess what I am seeking here is the opinion of others on how all of this will end according to them. I would be interested in any thoughts.

makedonin 09-24-2008 05:04 AM

I will speak for my self. I would agree on Upper Macedonia if there is still reference on Macedonian Language and Culture i.e. our language will stay Macedonian as well as the Culture. This is mandatory for me.

It will be so, that the Prefix Upper will certainly fall out with time as many have forgoten about F.Y.R. prefix standing before Macedonia.

It will open the gates for Entry in Institutions and will be easier for those who live in Macedonia.

But I don't see it happens.

Rogi 09-24-2008 05:25 AM

Allow me to stress this...

If we really care about the Rights of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, then we need to put some serious importance on the name that Greece will recognise us with.

Forget the International name, that cannot change whatsoever under any circumstance, I am talking about the 'double formula' potential solution and the name will will accept for Greece to use for us - it's very important if we in future want the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia to associate with the Republic of Macedonia - as the same people.

Rogi 09-24-2008 05:30 AM

Has anyone looked at the United Nations position on the name for Myanmar / Burma?

"The United Nations accepts the name Myanmar, [U]since the UN allows its members states to be known by any name they choose[/U]."

Furthermore, "...it has not been recognized by many Western governments such as the United States, [U]Australia[/U], Canada or the United Kingdom, which continue to use "Burma".

This means Australia, who has not yet recognised Macedonia's Constitutional name has clear double-standards, as in one case it goes against the United Nations, whereas in the case of Macedonia it claims it is following the United Nations.

Royal Hellas 09-24-2008 06:15 AM

[QUOTE=Rogi;3176]Allow me to stress this...

If we really care about the Rights of the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia, then we need to put some serious importance on the name that Greece will recognise us with.

Forget the International name, that cannot change whatsoever under any circumstance, I am talking about the 'double formula' potential solution and the name will will accept for Greece to use for us - it's very important if we in future want the Macedonians in Aegean Macedonia to associate with the Republic of Macedonia - as the same people.[/QUOTE]
The international name is still under negotiation Rogi, as you are currently under an interim name.

Greece wants a clear differentiation between Greek Macedonia and its Macedonians and your Aegean Macedonians.

The Aegean Macedonians are currently referred to in Greece as Slav Macedonians.

The Greek Government is committed to labelling the ethnicity/language as Slav Macedonian.

I believe there will be a change and it will be okayed by the RoM government.

Watch carefully what is happening in the current political arena in the UN, USA and you will start to feel the winds of change.

Soldier of Macedon 09-24-2008 06:15 AM

That's an interesting parallel.

makedonin 09-24-2008 06:17 AM

Rogi, it is hard call anyways.

It seems to me that what ever decision is made, it will have some backdraw.
The one who is going to make the move won't be interested in the Voice of the Macedonians, cause we are just silent voices.

Soldier of Macedon 09-24-2008 06:23 AM

[QUOTE=Royal Hellas;3181]The international name is still under negotiation Rogi, as you are currently under an interim name.

Greece wants a clear differentiation between Greek Macedonia and its Macedonians and your Aegean Macedonians.

The Aegean Macedonians are currently referred to in Greece as Slav Macedonians.

The Greek Government is committed to labelling the ethnicity/language as Slav Macedonian.

I believe there will be a change and it will be okayed by the RoM government.

Watch carefully what is happening in the current political arena in the UN, USA and you will start to feel the winds of change.[/QUOTE]
The Aegean Macedonians are the Macedonians and that is what their language is called, as compared to Greeks from Macedonia. The Macedonians are not currently referred to as Slav Macedonians in Greece, they are not even acknowledged to exist.

I am of the impression that Greece believes it is making a concession by calling the Macedonians as Slav Macedonians - This, will not be accepted by the Macedonian side, as it will be considered a loss for us.

The constitutional name will not be changed, nor will its international equivalent, the only country in the world that seems to have a problem with the name of Macedonia, remains to be Greece. So wouldn't it make more sense for the Macedonian government to treat this issue as bi-lateral rather than international? I think so. The only reason why there are some others who haven't recognized our name is due to the stink kicked up by Greece, but I think it is wishful thinking on the part of the Greeks if they actually believe the constitutional name, language and identity will be changed from anything but Macedonian. These will all remain Macedonian.

Soldier of Macedon 09-24-2008 06:31 AM

Garbage. What recognition is there from Greece, officially a state, if this recognition isn't official? Street chatter? What you are saying is false, Greece does not recognize the Macedonians in their state by any name regardless of the distinct language and identity.


[QUOTE]Greece cannot formally label them as such due to the outstanding name dispute and interim agreement.[/QUOTE]
Come on RH, what about prior to the name dispute? Why didn't they recognize them then? Were they too busy supporting the politics of racists who wanted to "cut out their tongues" as one Greek paper put it? The name dispute is just an excuse.

Soldier of Macedon 09-24-2008 06:33 AM

Let me ask you, given that Greece does not recognize any of its ethnic minorities apart from a religious minority, do you actually believe that Greece would recognize and respect the Macedonians and the right to promote and keep their culture and language alive on an official platform regardless of the designated name?

I think that even if Greece forced the name of Slav Macedonians on the Macedonians within the country, they would still do everything possible to deny them their right to self-determination.

Royal Hellas 09-24-2008 06:36 AM

The Slav Macedonians are recognised in Greece but not officially.
Greece cannot formally label them as such due to the outstanding name dispute and interim agreement.
Don't forget that Greece has their own 2.5 million Macedonians in Greek Macedonia.

Once the name dispute is resolved, then all the other related issues such as ethnicity, language etc will be referred back to the new name accordingly.

Whether we like it or not, the change is inevitable, it will happen. The minorities will be officially recognised, the ethnicity and language will be accurately identified, the RoM will enter Europe, Nato etc, and we will all live happily ever after.

Soldier of Macedon 09-24-2008 06:42 AM

As I said
[QUOTE]Garbage. What recognition is there from Greece, officially a state, if this recognition isn't official? [B]Street chatter?[/B] What you are saying is false, Greece does not recognize the Macedonians in their state by any name regardless of the distinct language and identity.[/QUOTE]
Recognized by whom exactly, or better yet, what organ?

[QUOTE]Don't forget that Greece has their own 2.5 million Macedonians in Greek Macedonia.[/QUOTE]
No, Greece has 2.5 million of its citizens who reside the piece of Macedonia they occupy, many of whom are Christian Asians by descent, of which most did not speak Greek natively until they landed on European soil 85 years ago. Don't compare apples with oranges.

Royal Hellas 09-24-2008 06:45 AM

This is where the problem lies SOM. Greece does not share your view with its 2.5 million Macedonians. They are viewed as Macedonians, whether we like it or not.

Soldier of Macedon 09-24-2008 07:04 AM

Apples and oranges RH, in more ways than one.

These Greek citizens with largely Asian origins have not called themselves Macedonians until very recently, for my people, it is a name that represents a [B]national[/B] identity we have lived and died for in the past and present.

Besides, it is like me comparing the population of a region, lets say Bitola for arguments sake, to the population of the whole Greek state. You guys can have your regional names, but they do not take priority over the [B]national[/B] name and identity of another people.

There are people in Macedonia, Greece, Bulgaria, Albania, Serbia and the rest of the Balkans who identify nationally as Macedonians, their kin live all around the world, regardless of the pressure put on the Macedonian state today by Greece to change whatever, they only refer to themselves as Macedonians and will continue to do so. Hence, a change of name for identity, language and state is not an option for our people.

Greece can recognize my people by the name they self-identify with and then we will live happily ever after, the Macedonian side does not attempt to prevent the Greek side in relation to what names they wish to use, hence, this problem is entirely one created and prolonged by Greece itself, nobody else.


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