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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

George S. 03-03-2011 12:49 PM

What's in a name?
 
What's in a name?



By Peter Hill

Wednesday, 2 February 2011



[url]http://www.onlineopinion.com.au:80/view.asp?article=11561[/url]



On 28 November 2010 Professor John Melville-Jones, Winthrop Professor in the Department of Classics and Ancient History at the University of Western Australia, gave an address in Melbourne to a Greek organization called the “Australian-Macedonian Advisory Council”. Professor Melville-Jones’ address was entitled “The Importance of Historical Truth and the Macedonian Issue”. In this address Professor Melville-Jones beats the drum for the Greek Government in its dispute with the “Former Yugoslavian Republic of Macedonia”.



Professor Melville-Jones, while a specialist in classics and ancient history, cannot claim the same expertise in the modern history of South-Eastern Europe or the South-Slavonic languages. It is rash for a scholar to suggest that a particular ethnic group in Australia, in this case the Australian Macedonians, while good citizens of this country, are not intelligent enough to understand who they are, or who they are not. Nationality is a matter of self-ascription and the Slavonic-speaking inhabitants of Macedonia have been calling themselves Makedonci for at least 150 years. The Greeks have not been calling themselves Ellines for much longer than that.



The people that today call themselves Ellines “Hellenes” or “Greeks” did not adopt this name until the 19th century. Before that they had called themselves Romii “Romans” - because they had been citizens of the (Eastern-) Roman Empire. Even today, the indigenous term for “Greekness” is Romiosini, not the artificial pseudo-classical term Elinikotita.



Nations are, by definition, products of the modern era. It is often said that Australia became a nation at Gallipoli. Most scholars believe that the French became a nation during the French Revolution and the subsequent Napoleonic wars, when soldiers were asked for the first time to fight for la nation. Others, however, believe that the French did not become a nation until the end of the 19th century, when, with the advent of compulsory universal schooling, pupils could be taught who they were or at least who they were supposed to be.



Some European nations probably did not come into existence until national television reached every household in the second half of the 20th century. Certainly, even in the 1950s, peasants in some parts of Europe seemed to have no clear idea what the name of their supposed nation actually meant.



The Macedonians became a nation during the 20th century, the Greeks during the 19th. Some of the details of the modern Greek ethnogenesis can be read in Roger Just’s celebrated 1989 article “Triumph of the Ethnos”. But Greek national identity seems to be so fragile that it is threatened even by a dispute over who "owns" Alexander the Great.



The Hellenic Republic claims that the mere use of the name Macedonia by the neighbouring republic is in itself irredentist, because there is an area of Northern Greece called Macedonia. But there are probably dozens of similar situations around the world: Luxemburg is a Grand Duchy and also a province of neighbouring Belgium, Azerbaijan is an independent republic and also a province in northern Iran. The name France means “land of the Franks” (in German Frankreich) - but there is a province in Germany called Franken, in English Franconia, meaning “land of the Franks”.



The Hellenic Republic claims that it feels threatened by its small neighbour. This is hardly convincing, since the Hellenic Republic has one of the most powerful armies in NATO, while its small neighbour has only symbolic military forces, but in order to accommodate Greek sensibilities, the Republic of Macedonia changed its flag to avoid using symbols found on the territory of the present-day Hellenic Republic and changed its constitution to state explicitly that the Republic has no territorial claims against neighbouring states.



The perceived threat may actually be quite different. Does the Government of the Hellenic Republic need the dispute with its small neighbour in order to bolster national unity?

fyrOM 03-03-2011 01:25 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;91411]What a useless thread.[/QUOTE]

I could be a useless thread if the intent was to crack the governments nuts and hang them because clearly the name has not been changed an hence the crime they are accused of has not happened but as an exercise in logic it is an excellent way to illustrate a point.

The government suggested RoM Skopje
Everyone jumps up on the [I]hang them they are traitors bandwagon…[/I]logical right.
Maybe or maybe Not.

What would have made Gruevski ok such a proposal…traitor or gun to his head or other.

1. Gun to his head.
Lets assume the usa or any power held a gun to his head and said you must make this proposal.
What else did he do…ie in what context did he make the proposal what else was going on at the time.
To make this illustration in logic short…as some have said I post too long…I will only use 1 point from my Post031.
The government could say to the power holding a gun to his head

1. You know if the government signs on this proposal by themselves there will be a revolt not only in Macedonia but wherever Macedonians live around the world…do you really want to radicalise a few million Macedonians especially the one working in your countries offices.

2. To make this work it has to go to a referendum which you guys can fudge but this issue…ie the name and identity…is not like should the DDV…ie vat or gst…tax be raised or not it doesn’t just affect Macedonians in RoM but everywhere so the government has to prepare the diaspora for a referendum.

3. The government could have just made a press release from Skopje that any final decision would be by referendum and left it at that for the diaspora to make their own realisations and take necessary steps but you know how lazy or distracted people can be and may not have their papers in order by the time a snap referendum is called in favor of the external power. The government could argue that there would be a last minute rush by people wanting to get their papers in order so lets have a long lead time with regular notices in the papers.

4. Instead of doing the above the government actually sent teams into the diaspora to help them get their papers in order. Was this not at great expense. Would it not cause a fan fare. Why do it. Think about the sub text. If someone wanted to tell you something or sort something out with you couldn’t they just pick up the phone. Isn’t their fronting up at your door from a great distance saying they think what they have to say is very important in fact so important that they are prepared to make all this effort and expence…ie wake up this is really important.

5. Why would the government go to all this trouble and expense. Do they expect support from the diaspora for their proposal. Going to all that effort you could easily make that assumption.

6. Wait a minute…hasn’t the diaspora made it plainly clear they are absolutely against any name change so wouldn’t they be against the governments proposal and the government would already know this so why the huge effort into the diaspora…remember this is world wide and would have cost a bit.

Maybe the government WANTS the referendum to their own proposal to fail…isn’t this a short stop situation and hence doesn’t it mean it’s a dummy proposal. doesn’t it then remove the pressure…ie gun…from Gruevskis head…what can I do the people don’t want it and there’s too many ballot boxes around the world to fudge them all.

RESULT…By their action Gruevski and the government have shown they are not traitors could not be traitors and in fact can be said patriots for creating a situation which throws a spanner in the works in any internal or external force attempt to force a name change from ever being possible.

Option 2. No gun to his head. To counter the Greek red line.
All of the above except the reason is to show the Greeks as being recalcitrant pricks who it would be impossible to reach a compromise with no matter how hard you try…isn’t RoM Skopje a pretty good offer…the Greeks just want their red line and nothing else and this is not in the spirit of compromise hence Greece’s strangle hold on entry to any world organization should be made invalid let Macedonia in resulting in removing Greece’s leverage and hence promote a more reasonable compromising mindset from them.

RESULT…Veto gets a bullet in the head and Macedonia is in the eu nato the human rights organization to stick it back to the geeks. Fyrom is irrelevant if it gets you a seat at the table and an active voice.
Hardly the actions of a traitor.

[QUOTE]The fact that Macedonia's name has been changed is already a foregone conclusion. Go to the UN and see how they refer to us. Some of our posters here don't seem to have the capacity to grasp this simple fact, and instead, are still trying to throw up excuses for traitors, like our 'leaders' aren't capable of further stupidity.
Quote:
The question is can Macedonia get into the eu and nato even if it is as fyrom.
Why would it want to? To cement our disgrace? Is that what you want, so it can enact the 'release valve' in Macedonia?[/QUOTE]

You have to be able to see past the face value of things.

So RTG if this thread could be used to change people thinking processes maybe it wasn’t such a useless thread after all.

Need I go through the other points in Post031.

julie 03-03-2011 03:12 PM

OM, referendums have been rigged.
This one will be rigged
Shiptarite worldwide will be voting
Macedonian diaspora will not
3 years ago Gruevski came up with the Skapani Skopje
Why cant you see what he is doing?
He is further enforcing the Interim Accord through the ICJ
You continue to paint a picture that Gruevski cannot do anything but succumb to Greece's demands
For fuck sake, wake up, stop defending him, our flag is gone, our kutlesh sonce is gone, we are doomed, and our demise is there in black and white and you cant see what he is doing
Any referendum that comes up will not be like Australia's referendums, you cant see it
Stop defending the cockhead, he has not stood up to anyone
When Gruevski was in Australia shaking Rudd's hand why the fuck did he not insist on us being called Macedonians????He signed reciprocal pension agreements here with him, Rudd did not hold a gun to his head. Australia would have respected his wishes

It saddens me that people cannot wake up in the diaspora and see the firm writing on the wall, we are doomed OM, the decision has already been made, he has sold us out, and watch Gruevski retire in a western country , with UMD full support, they have been going along with the Macedonian government and working with them all this time. What the government has not realised is that MOST of the diaspora cannot be brainwashed into slaves and serfdom like he has done with the Republic.
And whilst am there am fucking sick and tired of us not being able to refer to our mother country as MACEDONIA. WE ARE MACEDONIANS. OUR NAME IS MACEDONIA. OUR HERITAGE IS MACEDONIAN , WE HAVE MACEDONIAN BLOOD, I AM NOT A FUCKING SKOPJEN, GET THAT THROUGH YOUR THICK HEADS

Vangelovski 03-03-2011 09:18 PM

What makes Ozimak post so much mindless dribble on this forum...idiot, gun to his head or other?

Phoenix - is that google program available yet?

Did anyone see RtG's dog hear one hand clapping?

How long has this forum being running, how many times have we shown treason and illogical nonsense for what it is and still the same old tired posters come up with the same old tired propaganda.

Phoenix 03-03-2011 10:29 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;91580]What makes Ozimak post so much mindless dribble on this forum...idiot, gun to his head or other?

Phoenix - is that google program available yet?
[/QUOTE]

TV, apparently some Macedonian Web Developers are working on it...oh, hang on, that's another thread altogether. I'm trying to get into the parallel universe thing that OM finds to be particularly lucid...

fyrOM 03-03-2011 10:51 PM

[QUOTE=Phoenix;91585]TV, apparently some Macedonian Web Developers are working on it...oh, hang on, that's another thread altogether. [B]I'm trying to get into the parallel universe thing that OM finds to be particularly lucid...[/B][/QUOTE]

Psychologists say children see things in terms of black and white and as they grow and learn they start to see the world in shades of grey. Assuming psychologists are right [B]how far along on the [I]begging to see shades of gray[/I] scale do you thing you are.[/B]

We know children live in the same physical universe as adults but it is also a common belief children see things differently to adults and hence [B]it is like the two live in separate parallel universes…is this the parallel universe you are referring to and trying to get into.[/B] I think you have to wait until your hormones kick in and pimples start growing on your face.

Try your hand at…

[url]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?p=91586#post91586[/url]

And give us your superior insights.

indigen 03-04-2011 02:01 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;86315][url]http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n239548[/url]

And why shouldn't Macedonia be the winner Ivanov?
Sounds like a sellout is inevitable by DPMNE and Co.

Anyone want to suggest a way Macedonia won't lose in this process? Disgusting.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=julie;86348]Ivanov is showing his true form. The loser will be the one that has negotiated, what an absolute tool, compromising our identity. They are showing their tactics, they all have hidden personal agendas and its apparent they stand to profit nicely. Why else would they continue to play a dangerous game in selling our identity[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=indigen;86370][QUOTE=Phoenix;86353]I think its prudent to keep our eyes on the ball and to read between the lines as much as possible but at the same time be weary of reading too much into statements that could be minefields of deliberate ambiguity...[/QUOTE]
There IS NO AMBIGUITY in the FACT that "our" ruling political elites in Mk are willing to "compromise" (sell out) DETRIMENTALLY to Macedonian national interests on the name issue, i.e. accept a NEW (amended) name for the state for international use. And this will not be the first nor the last stab in the back of Macedonian national interests, at least until there is nothing worthwhile left to sell out and compromise on.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=indigen;86917][IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/articles_1990s/wa_10_4_1993.jpg[/IMG]

[SIZE="4"][B][COLOR="Red"]Gloom, bitterness mark Macedonia's entry to the UN[/COLOR][/B]

[COLOR="Purple"][B]Skopje: The people of [...] Macedonia yesterday greeted the news that their state had become the 181st member of the United Nations with a mixture of gloom and bitterness.[/B][/COLOR]

[COLOR="Navy"]State-run Macedonian television covered the UN General Assembly session live and celebratory fireworks lit up the skies over Skopje's central square.[/COLOR]

[B][COLOR="Red"]But only a handful of people gathered to watch and the streets were deserted.

"All this struggle, all this never-ending agony, was it worth it?" asked one of the few onlookers in the central square.[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]

[...]

[SIZE="4"]Prime Minister Branko Crvenkovski was the only official voice of optimism in Skopje.

[COLOR="Red"][B]The Parliament had called a vote of no-confidence in the Government over its capitulation to the UN conditions for Macedonia's admission.[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[...]

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Navy"]But, ignoring the urgings by moderate President Kiro Gligorov to accept reality,[/COLOR] [COLOR="Purple"][B]Macedonia's biggest opposition party called the no-confidence motion, saying Mr Crvenkovski's Cabinet had violated the constitution by accepting the compromise name.[/B][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[...]

[SIZE="4"][B][COLOR="Red"]The influential Holy Synod of the Macedonian Orthodox Church yesterday lent the nationalists unexpected support, calling the temporary name a "lie, trap and insult"....."[/COLOR][/B]

[B]The West Australian, Saturday April 10, 1993.[/B]
[/SIZE]

----------------

[B]MACEDONIA SPURNS NAME (ILAWARRA MERCURY 1-4-1993)[/B]


In an apparent collision course with the terse Government statement, Macedonian President Kiro Gligorov called on the nation to face up to reality.

Addressing the nation over state television, he appealed to Macedonians to "face up to reality without sacrificing any national interests"..."

[IMG]http://i995.photobucket.com/albums/af80/inidgen2010/articles_1990s/im_1_4_1993.jpg[/IMG]

Some lessons in recent Macedonian political history on political double-speak, deception, treasonous capitulation/betrayal and exposing those suffering from political AMNESIA (all those who claim to be patriots and dpmne supporters keeping true to the party's anti-capitulation ideology of the past!)![/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;86932][COLOR="Purple"]In 1991, Macedonia was a [B][I]Macedonian [/I][/B]state. Now it is the state of various peoples who, according to our new Ramkovist constitution are all equal co-constitutive nations of the Ramkovist State now known internationally as FYROM.[/COLOR]

As for Gruevski, this has already been pointed out numerous times, but it seems that every apologist newcomer needs to make a fool of himself rather than reading up on what has already been posted or thinking for themselves. [COLOR="Red"][B]Gruevski is a traitor because he has accepted and continued to implement the Interim Accord and the Framework Agreement, among other treasonous acts. A name change would only be the final act of treason in a long line of capitulations that Gruevski and Ivanov have accepted and are selling to the Macedonian people as "necessary", just like their predecessors did.[/B][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Vangelovski, thanks for the CLEAR and CONCISE articulation of the main points relevant to this discussion!

So pochit,
I.

-------------

[QUOTE=Volk;86899]Yes you are correct why Macedonia is taking Greece to ICJ to show Greece broke the accord.[/QUOTE]
The IA (Interim Accord") IS A TREASONOUS ANTI MACEDONIAN CAPITULATION DEED that was condemned as such by DPMNE and ALL patriotic Macedonians and Macedonian organisations back in 1995 and having the "Macedonian" state (NB: Ramkovist (post 2001) Macedonia is NOT a Macedonian state!) taking it to the ICJ VALIDATES this ILLEGAL ACT. Macedonian validation has grave and national suicidal implications arising out of this shameful treasonous act!


[URL="http://www.novamakedonija.com.mk/NewsDetal.asp?vest=151196187&id=13&setIzdanie=22175"][COLOR="Navy"]Што е паметно во спорот со Грција[/COLOR][/URL]

[QUOTE]Македонија да се одлучи дали ќе го примени моето правно средство, или она на Јанев. Само во овие два случаја има правен силогизам со судска практика. Она што го прави Владата со тужбата е привиден силогизам, побиен од мојот правен силогизам. [COLOR="Red"][B]Доколку Владата успее со тужбата, тогаш сами сме си го ставиле јажето и ќе мора да правиме компромис[/B][/COLOR]. А меѓународното право вели дека за иус цогенс, какви што се посочените норми во мојата „Стратегија за зачувување на името“, која ја објави „Нова Македонија“, не смее да се прави компромис.

[......]

И за крај; доколку привремената согласност е важечка, зошто тогаш Грција петнаесет години не поднесува тужба против Македонија за мала фидес? Зошто не ја обвини Македонија пред Меѓународниот суд на правдата дека Македонија веќе петнаесет години ги влече преговорите и нема добра волја да ја исполни? Судот може да ја натера Македонија на компромис.

Заради тоа што правото на самоопределување е иус цогенс, а Меѓународниот суд на правдата во случајот „Источен Тимор“ 1995 година веќе одлучи дека правото на самоопределување важи ерга омнес.
Значи, Грција знае дека ќе загуби. Затоа траат толку преговорите.

[B][COLOR="Red"]Дај му на будалата доволно јаже, па самиот ќе се обеси (англиска поговорка). [/COLOR][/B]

[.....]

Авторот е адвокат и судски преведувач
Автор: Марјан Попески
[/QUOTE]

-----------------

[QUOTE=Phoenix;86379]What's the answer Indigen...?[/QUOTE]

This topic is NOT about answers but about painting a CLEAR PICTURE of the STATE of the nation as it really is and not how some of us wish to IMAGINE it to be!

You might want to consider the following points that SOM presented in another topic:

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;86334]Who are we directing the message to? The world? Or our own politicians who are selling Macedonia out? What Macedonian Diaspora groups need to do is put pressure on the Macedonian government to conform with the goals of the Macedonian Cause, by cooperating with them while they continue to negotiate OUR IDENTITY we are making it easier for them to carry out their dirty work.

[B]I am not advocating the cessation of trade and interaction between Macedonians in the Diaspora and those in Macedonia, [COLOR="Navy"]but instead a form or forms of consistent and perpetual protest against the government's policies. [/COLOR][/B][B][COLOR="Red"]Reject them and their advances, do not welcome them when they visit us in Diaspora countries, in fact, that is when we should protest.[/COLOR][/B] The Macedonian government can end this fiasco with the name today, right now, all they have to say is NO to the violation of our heritage, identity and integrity.

[B][COLOR="Purple"]How many Macedonians are prepared to do that? And how many will still greet Gruevski or Ivanov like royalty when they visit the country in which they live? Our future can be ours to determine, but we need to take it into our hands.[/COLOR][/B] I eagerly await the next visit of any high-profile Macedonian politician to Australia - gone are the days of good reception,[B][COLOR="Red"] these people need to be held accountable for their actions, and if the Macedonians in Macedonia won't or can't do it, then the rest of the Macedonians across the world should. Afterall, the stupid decisions that some idiot politicians in Macedonia make, affect us all.[/COLOR][/B][/QUOTE]

Cheers
-------------

A selection of what I think are some relevant posts from this discussion to be brought to the fore again.

George S. 03-04-2011 07:51 AM

The greeks were known as romani only recently before their creation asa country.

e people that today call themselves Ellines “Hellenes” or “Greeks” did not adopt this name until the 19th century. Before that they had called themselves Romii “Romans” - because they had been citizens of the (Eastern-) Roman Empire. Even today, the indigenous term for “Greekness” is Romiosini, not the artificial pseudo-classical term Elinikotita.
The greeks are never happy with their identity & are allways changing to suit themselves its like someone trying to put a different coat.

Vangelovski 03-04-2011 07:55 AM

Interim Accord
 
Seeing as the letter of our amatuer Foreign Minister Milososki has recently come to light, it is perhaps timely to have a refresh on the Interim Accord for all the goldfish out there.

The full text of the Interim Accord (from the UN database) can be found here:

[COLOR=#000000][URL]http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf[/URL][/COLOR]

Key Articles in the Interim Accord which Undermine Macedonian Sovereignty

a) Macedonia agrees to negotiate its name (Article 5);

b) Macedonia agrees to renounce all claims to its ethnic/historic territory and agrees NOT to pursue the rights of Macedonians not only in Greece but in ANY OTHER STATE (Article 6);

c) Macedonia agrees to renounce the Sonce as its national symbol AND any other symbols that Greece considers to be part of its historic or cultural heritage (Article 7); and

d) Macedonia agrees to only enter international organisations under FYROM (Article 11).

In addition, another article of interest is the following (I would not necessarily argue that this undermines Macedonian national sovereignty for the simple fact that the ICJ is a limitation on national sovereignty, it is nonetheless rather stupid):

e) Macedonia agrees that the two parties will not “resolve” the name dispute through the International Court of Justice – i.e., Igor Janev’s proposal (Article 21).

George S. 03-04-2011 09:15 AM

What a joke macedonia gets the raw deal again,isn't that surprising when did it get a good deal.If the interim accord is not capitulation & compromise i don't know what is.I'm speechless whoever agreed to this is a damn traitor.
Vangelovski thanks for bringing this up i didn't know how bad it was until i read this.Hey man we've been sold out big time.


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