Macedonian Truth Forum

Macedonian Truth Forum (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/index.php)
-   News and Politics (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=10)
-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Bratot 12-15-2010 02:56 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;83055]Where??? In what universe?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;83059]Bratot, get off the rakija. Now you're just being plain STUPID.[/QUOTE]

Vangelovski,

I will repeat what I've said earlier to you:

[B]
I would appreciate if you prove that what I wrote is wrong.

Your opinion about me have nothing to do with the logical merits of my arguments or assertions.

Until you prove your allegations against me as correct you are not able to question my credibility, is that clear enough?[/B]


I think that's fair enough, and you should really seek third party for a advise on this matter if you don't trust me, but take under consideration that there are such judgments of the European Court of Human Rights, in which the right to name and identity are contained in Article 8 of ECHR.

I mentioned once that I will publish whole article about these legal solutions, but I need the permission of one more (from 3 persons) expert on IL to publish their strategy.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;83100]Again, get off the rakija.[/QUOTE]

Do I need to ask the Admins to discipline you for these irrelevant commentaries?

Vangelovski 12-15-2010 03:08 AM

Bratot,

You are yet to provide an explanation of how Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which relates to personal privacy, has anything to do with 'rights to an identity'.

Prove you wrong? You're not even making any sense. You've googled a random bunch of legal terms, provided irrelevant and contradictory "legal strategies" and you're asking for someone to 'prove you wrong'??

[B]To declare something 'null and void' means to consider that it never existed[/B]. It means having no legal effect. The law treats it as if it had never existed or happened. How on earth could Macedonia be compelled to continue to enforce the provisions of an Accord which is considered as never having existed???

Where on earth are you finding the crap that you put up here on this forum??? You are either a comlete MORON or you are purposely spreading confusion.

Daniel the Great 12-15-2010 03:13 AM

Typical article, pointing out a Macedonia name dispute but no mentioning of the Human rights that are being denied and how Greece will stop at nothing in the continuous pursuit to cause havoc in Macedonia.

Bratot 12-15-2010 03:58 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;83102]Bratot,

[B]You are yet to provide an explanation of how Article 8 of the European Convention of Human Rights, which relates to personal privacy, has anything to do with 'rights to an identity'.[/B]
Prove you wrong? You're not even making any sense. You've googled a random bunch of legal terms, provided irrelevant and contradictory "legal strategies" and you're asking for someone to 'prove you wrong'??

[B]Do declare something 'null and void' means to consider that it never existed[/B]. It means having no legal effect. The law treats it as if it had never existed or happened. How on earth could Macedonia be compelled to continue to enforce the provisions of an Accord which is considered as never having existed???

Where on earth are you finding the crap that you put up here on this forum??? You are either a comlete MORON or you are purposely spreading confusion.[/QUOTE]


A person’s name is an integral part of one’s identity. [B]Both the Human Rights Committee and the European Court have ruled that a person’s name falls under the protection afforded by the right to respect for private life[/B]. In Coeriel and Aurik v. The Netherlands (Communication No. 453/1991, Views of 31 October 1994), where national authorities refused the applicants permission to change their surnames to Hindu surnames, the Human Rights Committee [B]established that a person’s name, including the power to change it, falls within the realm of privacy[/B]:

[CENTER]The Committee is of the view that a person’s surname constitutes an important component of one’s identity and that the protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with one’s privacy [B]includes the protection against arbitrary or unlawful interference with the right to choose and change one’s own name.[/B] For instance, if a State were to compel all foreigners to change their surnames, this would constitute interference in contravention of article 17.[/CENTER]

Although the European Convention does not specifically refer to name, the European Court has reviewed several cases in which individuals have claimed that [B]governmentally imposed restrictions on name changes have violated the right to private life under Article 8.[/B]

[url]http://www.humanrights.is/the-human-rights-rpoject/humanrightscasesandmaterials/comparativeanalysis/therighttorespect/identity/[/url]

This is just example as I advised you to check the existing judgments of the European Court of Human Rights, in which the right to name and identity are contained in Article 8 of ECHR.

As for your ignorance on these matters I don't feel obligated to comment, because I don't want to violate your FREEDOM to be ignorant.

Vangelovski 12-15-2010 04:14 AM

Bratot,

Those judgements refer to INDIVIDUALS and their PERSONAL names. Not their NATIONAL/ETHNIC identity or STATE names.

As for your "Res Judicata" (delivery of a final judgement without recourse to appeal) even an amateur, such as myself, can see the flaws in that. Firstly, why would we need a "final judgement" in relation to the Interim Accord? Accepting the jurisdiction of a court to decide on that matter basically means that you accept that Greece has legitimate "grievances" that need arbitration in order to be resolved. Secondly, why is it that you accept the jurisdiction of a court that is unaccountable to the sovereign Macedonian people?

Vangelovski 12-15-2010 04:30 AM

To be sovereign means to be the supreme authority within a particular jurisdiction, with no higher human power. What does this mean? This means that, for example, the Macedonian people, as a body of citizens, are the HIGHEST POWER within the Macedonian state. They have the FINAL say on any matter within and with regard to themselves and the Macedonian state. There is NO higher authority (international or domestic) that can overrule them (natural law excepted).

As a sovereign body of citizens, they can choose to declare the Interim Accord ‘null and void’ at any time. This means that the Interim Accord would have no effect as if it NEVER EXISTED.

This is national self-determination in action.

Claiming that we need to appeal to another human power or authority is basically saying that the Macedonian people SHOULD NOT determine their own affairs and exercise their own national sovereignty. It also sounds a bit like the deluded cry for outside help that Delcev correctly warned about.

indigen 12-15-2010 04:39 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;83100]Again, get off the rakija.[/QUOTE]
Buktop II has just been reincarnated, don't you think? :)

Vangelovski 12-15-2010 04:46 AM

[quote=indigen;83113]Buktop II has just been reincarnated, don't you think? :)[/quote]

I think so. There is very little difference between what Bratot is advocating now and what Buktop did previously.

fyrOM 12-15-2010 05:06 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;83082]I'm glad you accept the existance of natural law.[/QUOTE]

Law…Natural or not…the devils in the detail.

To borrow a quote

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance."
-- Thomas Jefferson

that’s why I have been saying the government and the people…including diaspora…needs to act on each and every instance where ones freedom is put into question.

Like a negligent gardener if the weeds are left today…ahh it doesn’t mater…they will expand until there is nothing left of the flowers. Our government is behaving like a negligent gardener.

A lot of people in the world know the western version of history and immediately identify Macedonians and Macedonia with Greece. Where does that leave us…being seen as new arrival squatters trying to claim our corner of the property and pretending to be Macedonians to excuse our presence.

If we are seen as the squatters what can be said of the Albanians…there are Albanians in their home in Albania and Albanians as squatters in Macedonia.

Why then should one lot of squatters have anymore right to the patch of land than the other lot of squatters hence even the Albanians are putting out signals in unison with our other neighbours that they don’t want RoM and her citizens…ie including them…to be disadvantaged by not being in the EU because the other squatters romanticised delusions of some connection to the true…read ancient…Macedonians. Hurry up and give up you delusions and let us join the EU or we will have to exercise our Natural Rights to Self Determination and brake off from you. A convenient set of labels for the EU or USA to use to excuse future actions. Perceptions are not just thoughts and ideas. Believe it there are real physical dangers in perceptions hence the need to manage the perceptions people have of you.

I had hoped that Macedonian individuals and organisations could work together to counter any and every bit of misinformation or propaganda against Macedonia. Eg I did my 2 cents worth in the comments of today’s Herald Sun article. I had hoped a while back the UMD would have used their media pull to counter that stupid historian professor from the UK…of Bulgarian decent…claiming in his book that Macedonians were really Bulgarians and the AMHRC MHRMI tackling issues like the Macedonians in Albania being threatened for simply wanting to learn their own language and that Macedonians and Macedonian organisations in EU countries could attack radio talkback and newspapers as things come up. Good on those who have done there bit and what a disappointment the rest have been. The UMD is a gapping hole in this idea as their media and political connections are extremely valuable.

I had hopes to see members abandon negative preconception eg Egej vs. RoM Macedonians or RoM vs. diaspora or UMD vs. everyone for trying to highjack them as volunteer workers for the purpose would to have a unified multi continent anti propaganda unit ready for any misinformation the neighbours throw out:punk:.

Risto the Great 12-15-2010 05:09 AM

OM, even with paragraphs, I find it difficult to understand what you write. I keep thinking I am tired, but I always seem to be tired when I read your posts.


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:07 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Macedonian Truth Organisation