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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Vangelovski 07-01-2010 02:19 AM

Bratot,

Looks like we have to go back to basics with you. I'll have to dig up all of my old post, but I'll start with this: Do you understand the concept of state sovereingty?

And just for laughs, when was the last time a UN member was expelled for violating a Security Council Resolution?

Rogi 07-01-2010 02:22 AM

Bratot, are you suggesting that by withdrawing from the Interim Agreement, Macedonia will simultaneously lose its' membership in the United Nations?

Vangelovski 07-01-2010 02:26 AM

[quote=Rogi;61828]Bratot, are you suggesting that by withdrawing from the Interim Agreement, Macedonia will simultaneously lose its' membership in the United Nations?[/quote]

I rarely use these but @ Bratot :6: :death:

Bratot 07-01-2010 02:33 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;61731][url]http://www.un.org/en/members/index.shtml#m[/url]
I looked in the "M" section and could not find Macedonia.
We are not there. So there is nothing to worry about. :winkiss:

I suppose if I look at the "T" section I might see something .... but I don't want to look there. It goes against UN charters. But if I take a peek at the "T" section it says admitted 1993. Which precedes the interim agreement anyway. [U]Therefore I will say nothing will happen whatsoever[/U].[B] It will be the same shit with the UN as has been the case for 17 years. Are you tired of the "provisional" name yet?[/B] [/QUOTE]

I thought you want to withdraw the IA because you are tired of the provisional name, so by doing that you have to follow the path I already described to Vangelovski.

Claiming so comfortably [I]'that nothing will happen whatsoever' [/I]is not serious and of course from this position of no responsibility for the unforeseen concequences I might agree with you, nothing will happen.

Are you really fully convinced about the repercussions and can responsible guarantee that no negative implications will take place and this will better our possition?

I'm not opposing the [I]'great national pride of resistance and big move'[/I] feeling, but I'm afraid it could easily end up like in Serbia example, where also most of the people never believed all those things will happen but yet, their country has been practically devided. And I don't think this tendentions of territorial claims against Macedonia have ever calmed as we are the shooting mark from all sides.

But ok, lets try everything you convincly suggest, this way or other way I'm ready to back off my position and to support the common strive even if we are doomed to a failure. All I wanted was to rethink some of your opinions in order not to repeat the old mistake, as the one for early rising Illinden resurection.

johnMKD 07-01-2010 02:35 AM

[QUOTE=sf.;61768]That's how it was sold to Macedonia/ns. The reference is actually worse than that. It doesn't state that this is the country Macedonia that used to be a republic of Yugoslavia, but rather that this is [B]the state that used to be known as the Republic of Macedonia in Yugoslavia[/B] (but is not any longer and a decision on a new name should be found). It's a reference that is used in absence of a name.

Also to note, as I have previously here, [B]why would the Greeks agree[/B] to any name that included the word Macedonia, when they even reduce FYROM to its acronym, to avoid the mention of the word?[/QUOTE]

Actually I never thought it the way you said (the state that used to be known as the Republic of Macedonia in Yugoslavia), but I guess you're right. For me it was always FYR Macedonia as far as the interim accord is concerned.

Of course the Geeks agree to the acronym just to avoid using the term. FYROM was just perfect for them. I have even seen it like this on Greek maps: Fyrom :6: as if it is a name by its self.

Vangelovski 07-01-2010 02:36 AM

Acutally Bratot,

If you think that Macedonia will be expelled from the UN (and you view this as a dangerous situation) how on earth will you ever justify withdrawing from the Interim Accord, even after your supposed "reforms" are in place? What you have just argued insinuates that the Interim Accord "must" remain in place permanently or we "must" change our name, otherwise we will be in defiance of SC Resolution 817 and we, according to you, will be expelled from the UN, which, according to you, will be Greece's "wet dream" scenario. So, according to you, we either have to change our name or remain in a permanent state of negotiations... This is a new shift from your previous argument that will can withdraw, but not now and only at the "right time".

Further, trying to equate Macedonia with Serbia, which instigated 2 expantionist wars and genocide is completely ridiculous and another typical scaremongering tactic.

Bratot 07-01-2010 02:54 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;61827]Bratot,

Looks like we have to go back to basics with you. I'll have to dig up all of my old post, but I'll start with this: Do you understand the concept of state sovereingty?

And just for laughs, when was the last time a UN member was expelled for violating a Security Council Resolution?[/QUOTE]

I'm not here for lecturing nor you gave your answer on the questions I asked.

When your hignness provide the answers than we can continie debating.

[QUOTE=Rogi;61828]Bratot, are you suggesting that by withdrawing from the Interim Agreement, Macedonia will simultaneously lose its' membership in the United Nations?[/QUOTE]


Rogi,

with withdrawing the IA in purpose of abandoning the provisional name can be done only by withdrawing the primary recognition of our country for membership in UN.

In order to restore all our rights as member state we have to provide support of two-third of all United Nations' members including approval by the Security Council members P-5.

I think we already have reach the two-thirds that have already recognized us but we have to pass the SC P-5 where we confront France as usually.

The Resolution of our admitting in 1993 have obligated us to work finding a mutual solution with Greece, on that relates the IA and by unilateral withdrawing without such decission of the ICJ where we have the case going on, we can only damage our rights in UN and our seat can be suspended.

Vangelovski 07-01-2010 02:55 AM

[quote=Bratot;61825] By ceasing the IA the resolution of our admitting to UN is violated since we obligated ourself to reach an agreement.

Therefore if we want to 'anul and void' the provisional name by withdrawing from the IA is not posibile but only with re-admission to the UN - by recomendation of the SC.

The P-5 members of SC have the right to VETO every resolution, as the one supposed for re-admission of Macedonia under it's Constitutional name.

Now let me hear your plan of getting rid of the 'provisional reference' only by abandoning the IA and how according to you will implicate our status in the UN.

I guess I can relay on your capabilities and knowledge how such diplomatic meneuvres have been and can be done.[/quote]


The above was actually the UMD plan of attack. I provided a number of examples, in this thread I think, about the process of name changes at the UN.

[quote=Bratot;61834] The Resolution of our admitting in 1993 have obligated us to work finding a mutual solution with Greece, on that relates the IA and by unilateral withdrawing without such decission of the ICJ where we have the case going on, we can only damage our rights in UN and our seat can be suspended.[/quote]


[B]If you think that Macedonia will be expelled from the UN (and you view this as a dangerous situation) how on earth will you ever justify withdrawing from the Interim Accord, even after your supposed "reforms" are in place? What you have just argued insinuates that the Interim Accord "must" remain in place permanently or we "must" change our name, otherwise we will be in defiance of SC Resolution 817 and we, according to you, will be expelled from the UN, which, according to you, will be Greece's "wet dream" scenario. So, according to you, we either have to change our name or remain in a permanent state of negotiations... This is a new shift from your previous argument that will can withdraw, but not now and only at the "right time".[/B]

You've contradicted yourself so many times in this thread, but this one takes the cake.

Vangelovski 07-01-2010 03:01 AM

[quote=Bratot;61834]The Resolution of our admitting in 1993 have obligated us to work finding a mutual solution with Greece, on that relates the IA and [B]by unilateral withdrawing[/B] without such decission of the ICJ where we have the case going on, [B]we can only damage our rights in UN and our seat can be suspended[/B].[/quote]

You heard it here first - Macedonia could be suspended for excercising its sovereignty. Iran and North Korea have not been suspended, various other states have not been suspended for a number of serious violations against humanity, yet Macedonia could be suspended. This, Bratot, has got to be the most compelling evidence for your GLIGOROVIST propaganda.

Bratot 07-01-2010 03:06 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;61833]Acutally Bratot,

If you think that Macedonia will be expelled from the UN (and you view this as a dangerous situation) how on earth will you ever justify withdrawing from the Interim Accord, even after your supposed "reforms" are in place? [U]What you have just argued insinuates that the Interim Accord "must" remain in place permanently or we "must" change our name, [/U]otherwise we will be in defiance of SC Resolution 817 and we, according to you, will be expelled from the UN, which, according to you, will be Greece's "wet dream" scenario. So, according to you, we either have to change our name or remain in a permanent state of negotiations... This is a new shift from your previous argument that will can withdraw, [B]but not now and only at the "right time".[/B]
Further, trying to equate Macedonia with Serbia, which instigated 2 expantionist wars and genocide is completely ridiculous and another typical scaremongering tactic.[/QUOTE]

It's not a new shift, I already stated several times that we have to PREPARE ourselfs for such situation of circumstances.

After we become members in NATO and after we succeed prevailing within ( again the ex. with Turkey) we can more justiciable withdraw the IA and stay members in NATO, which will better our diplomatic position in whole and our international relations if we decide to surpass the resolution for re-admission of our country under the Constitutional name.

In the current position we are basically defenseless in every meaning and we can easily be a subject of worse scenarious.

I'm not equating Macedonia with Serbia in their policies, I'm only suggesting nothing is exaggerared when it comes to the repercussions. We wont be bombed for sure but we are so much vulnerable at this moment that we can be forced into another scenario of Ramkoven.

That will surely lead into worsen development of the situation in the country and yes, than the wet dream of Greece as I already cited Samaras will come true.


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