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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Risto the Great 06-13-2010 05:22 PM

[QUOTE=Buktop;59340]In the sense that the Government of Macedonia seeks to fully abide by the agreement I see it as binding on the Macedonian state, and it's citizens. Meaning, as long as the government continues playing by the agreement, we citizens are f#%*ed. And the only way to change that is either to drop everything and say F#%* it or explore some other option.

My interest is in finding a way out of the agreement, while maintaining a level of political clout, economic solidarity, and civil welfare. You may call me a vassal for trying to ensure the preservation of certain vital aspects of survival for a state and it's citizens, but none the less, I am able to realize that these aspects of survival are essential to the State and it's citizenry.[/QUOTE]
Buktop, you play the "impartial thinking Macedonian routine" quite often. Especially in any UMD discussions. It is very typical for all UMD followers. You have often said we must remain in negotiations for similar reasons you state above (maintaining a level of political clout, economic solidarity, and civil welfare). Well, the UMD has now said no more negotiations which, prima facie, should mean you are now opposed to them. How can you accept their revised approach? How long before you accept the approach in relation to the interim accord is wrong in the exactly the same way?

[QUOTE=Buktop]
You may call me a vassal for trying to ensure the preservation of certain vital aspects of survival for a state and it's citizens, but none the less, I am able to realize that these aspects of survival are essential to the State and it's citizenry.[/QUOTE]What vital aspects?

Buktop 06-14-2010 04:36 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;59395]Buktop, you play the "impartial thinking Macedonian routine" quite often. Especially in any UMD discussions. It is very typical for all UMD followers. You have often said we must remain in negotiations for similar reasons you state above (maintaining a level of political clout, economic solidarity, and civil welfare). Well, the UMD has now said no more negotiations which, prima facie, should mean you are now opposed to them. How can you accept their revised approach? How long before you accept the approach in relation to the interim accord is wrong in the exactly the same way?[/quote] Firstly, I did not say that we MUST maintain this position, rather that in terms of the issues I raised it would be rather prudent to secure alternative means of security before discarding our current ones. If the UMD are aware of something I am not, and feel that we are currently capable of removing ourselves from the talks, I would be very interested in their reasoning as per the change in policy.

As I have said before, I am not a UMD "Stooge" as I have been referred to, nor am I a subservient vassal. I base all of my decisions on legitimate reasoning and strategic analysis. Now I am not saying that I am 100% in my reasoning or analysis, (as I have already admitted in regards to the EU) but, I have found that my information, more often than not, is reliable.


[quote]What vital aspects?[/QUOTE]
Economy, health services, food industry, water, infrastructure, preservation of basic rights and many other aspects that ensure the sustainability of the life of Macedonian citizenry within the state.

Risto the Great 06-14-2010 05:07 AM

[QUOTE=Buktop;59462]Firstly, I did not say that we MUST maintain this position, rather that in terms of the issues I raised it would be rather prudent to secure alternative means of security before discarding our current ones. If the UMD are aware of something I am not, and feel that we are currently capable of removing ourselves from the talks, I would be very interested in their reasoning as per the change in policy.

As I have said before, I am not a UMD "Stooge" as I have been referred to, nor am I a subservient vassal. I base all of my decisions on legitimate reasoning and strategic analysis. Now I am not saying that I am 100% in my reasoning or analysis, (as I have already admitted in regards to the EU) but, I have found that my information, more often than not, is reliable. [/QUOTE]
Here is a tip. The UMD has no new information. They are flying by the seat of their pants on this and, as a consequence, have now officially failed you. Go ask them why they have changed their sentiment and placed you in such a conflicted position.

I like this change in stance by the UMD. I will look on with a combination of interest and amusement at how this non negotiation stance manifests itself now. If they have not thought this out, it will get quite embarrassing for them very quickly.

[QUOTE=Buktop on justifying the Interim Agreement]Economy, health services, food industry, water, infrastructure, preservation of basic rights and many other aspects that ensure the sustainability of the life of Macedonian citizenry within the state.[/QUOTE]
If the Interim Agreement is denounced as a horrific example of duress, how will the above items be impacted? Will it stop raining in Macedonia? Will the economy shrink much further? Will the food industry cease?

I think your sense of "compliance" is far more dangerous to Macedonia and Macedonians than a position which focuses on dignity.

Vangelovski 06-14-2010 05:33 AM

RtG,

It will be interesting to see whether Buktop slowly weasels his way around to denouncing the negotiations and then claiming he never supported them in the first place in order to line up with UMD.

If I were him, I would demand an explanation from Meto, and forewarning the next time Koloski decides to change his mind...again.

julie 06-14-2010 05:58 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;59487]RtG,

It will be interesting to see whether Buktop slowly weasels his way around to denouncing the negotiations and then claiming he never supported them in the first place in order to line up with UMD.

If I were him, I would demand an explanation from Meto, and forewarning the next time Koloski decides to change his mind...again.[/QUOTE]

Is Buktop the UMD?

Buktop 06-14-2010 06:24 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;59478]Here is a tip. The UMD has no new information. They are flying by the seat of their pants on this and, as a consequence, have now officially failed you. Go ask them why they have changed their sentiment and placed you in such a conflicted position.[/quote] Why don't you? You seem to be far more interested in their position than I am.

[quote]I like this change in stance by the UMD. I will look on with a combination of interest and amusement at how this non negotiation stance manifests itself now. If they have not thought this out, it will get quite embarrassing for them very quickly.[/quote] Depending on the reasoning, or foundation for the change in stance, i.e. evidence/facts/statistics that perhaps I am unaware of, I would gladly shift my position. It could merely have been a shift in position of the UMD member base though...


[quote]If the Interim Agreement is denounced as a horrific example of duress, how will the above items be impacted? Will it stop raining in Macedonia? Will the economy shrink much further? Will the food industry cease?[/quote] The interim agreement has been denounced time and time again, I have personally done so numerous times (if you don't believe me search my posts), I don't know if you remember much of the economic blockade that happened between 1994-95 but perhaps I should start a whole topic about it, because even though I keep posting the relevant economic information, Vangelovski and you don't seem to want to read it...

[quote]I think your sense of "compliance" is far more dangerous to Macedonia and Macedonians than a position which focuses on dignity.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps if you payed a bit more attention to my actual position rather than viewing me through my support of UMD we wouldn't have any argument.

Buktop 06-14-2010 06:27 AM

[QUOTE=julie;59490]Is Buktop the UMD?[/QUOTE]

no, I am Batman

julie 06-14-2010 06:32 AM

LMAO, if you are Batman is Meto the boy wonder?
seriously Buktop, I would like your opinion on some issues
1. Do you support the negotiations of our name
2. Are you on the UMD board
3. are you in support of the Accord?
4. Are you Macedonian

cheers

Risto the Great 06-14-2010 06:45 AM

[QUOTE=Buktop;59497]It could merely have been a shift in position of the UMD member base though...[/QUOTE]
Is that when Meto moves from the bedroom to the bathroom?


[QUOTE=Buktop;59497]Perhaps if you payed a bit more attention to my actual position rather than viewing me through my support of UMD we wouldn't have any argument.[/QUOTE]
I cannot make a distinction Buktop.

Seriously, why the scare mongering with the consequences of straying from compliance?

julie 06-14-2010 06:47 AM

RTG I choked on my coffee, you have a way with words :)


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