There is good and bad in all this, if Greece Vetoes in December then it would be the perfect time to get out of these negotiations. If we get a date it would mean that the EU will give us a time frame in order for us to join the EU so we are looking at 2012 at the earliest, either way if Greece blocks us then we have to consider our options.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;19343]Nimetz has been more enthusiastic in the past, come on fellas, how many times have we heard that a "name change is imminent", the "Macedonian government has already signed an agreement", the "Macedonian government will crack under the pressure of the US and EU any day now", bla, bla, bla. I have lost count to be honest, none of it means jack shit until the words are put into action, and few words have been put into action during the last 12 months let alone the last 17 years.

Gruevski knows that a bullet probably awaits the traitor that sells out the Macedonian identity in ROM, as he also knows that a betrayal in ROM will not ripple anywhere outside of ROM, and the Macedonians across the world, in neighbouring countries and the diaspora will continue to remain Macedonians and only Macedonians.

The 'negotiation' is pointless and a farce. The Macedonians do not wish to give up their identity, end of story. There are many battles in this war, but we will not lose the latter.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but the Macedonian government has already offered a number of name change proposals, which have been rejected by Greece.

The Macedonian government do not have a mandate to change the name - certainly not from the Macedonian people.

Even though the Macedonian people do not want us to be negotiating, and even though they do not want a name change, Gruevski and co. continue.

Negotiating still doesn't make any sense, and I suspected betrayal from the beginning because of that.

Negotiating our national identity is no o.k.

The Macedonian people want it to stop, and Gruevski and UMD wants it to continue.

[QUOTE=Pelister;27114]Negotiating our national identity is no o.k.

The Macedonian people want it to stop, and Gruevski and UMD wants it to continue.[/QUOTE]

Can you provide evidence of all/any of the above?


[B]1. Your Argument (and mine): "The Macedonian People want it to stop". [/B]

I want the negotiations to end immediately and on the basis of our Sovereignty and Right to self-determination, so do you and others here.

However, where is the clear evidence that this (end of negotiations) is what the Macedonian people (or a majority) want?

I wish we had such evidence in the form of signatures or a petition of Macedonian citizens - that could force the Government to stop.


[B]2. Your Argument: "Gruevski wants it (the negotiations) to continue".[/B]

Can you show me some evidence (a statement, etc) where Gruevski says that he wants the negotiations to continue?

In everything I have read he continues to say he wants a solution*. That indicates he wants the negotiations to end (which is what a 'solution' would do), not continue.

Please note that he does not say he wants a name change, etc, he uses the word 'solution'. There is a reason for that, according to the view of the Government.

For them (MK Government), from what I understand, if the 'solution' (to the Greek anti-Macedonian agenda) cannot be found by getting Greece (via discussion or international pressure) to end its anti-Macedonian agenda, recognise the Macedonian people/name/language/identity and respect the rights of the Macedonian minority, then the 'solution' could be via the International courts.

I personally think that the Government is wasting its time and should have followed Dr. Janev's proposal (as it almost did 9-10 years ago), but their view is to have enough 'ducks in line' before going that route.

I think that (end negotiations, follow Dr. Janev's proposal) will happen, in the end.


[B]3. Your Argument: "UMD wants it (the negotiations) to continue".[/B]

Please show some evidence of this. UMD's Press Releases call for an end to the negotiations and reject the notion of a 'name change' (which is the purpose of the negotiations).

This is also the case in all communique's between UMD and the Macedonian Government and any/all other Governments.

Though you will likely ignore what I have written here, as you do.

I already have Rogi - the problem is you are blind.

The historical facts are there.

Gruevski has actually proposed several name changes they would be willing and happy to accept !

I saw Meto move his lips when he proposed a name change. Didn't you, or was that a puppet talking ?

Meto and UMD have CLEARLY STATED they support the negotiations as a means to gain membership.

Furthermore, that they fully support a compromise solution.

Do I have to list them for you again ?

These are HISTORICAL FACTS, WHICH COME FROM METO'S OWN MOUTH AND THEIR OWN PRESS RELEASES.

Trying to DENY that is not doing you any good.

Pelister, TM already gave counter arguments to your posts, why do you continue be so stubborn??

Keep in mind that UMD has some good people in it, i dont see the point on spitting on their faces, i already stated that i believe they should me more radical with their statements however im not going to point fingers at them because they are fighting for my rights as a Macedonian. We should be more supportive and not so negative

Vecer, Macedonia: Name negotiations to be frozen until Hague court judgment
16 November 2009 | 09:45 | FOCUS News Agency
[url]http://www.focus-fen.net/index.php?id=n200570[/url]
Skopje. The name negotiations between Macedonia and Greece will be frozen until a judgment of the International Court of Justice in The Hague, Macedonian Vecer daily writes.
“In the past 14 years not a single Greek proposal has been as humiliating and ultimate as this one. It is not about negotiations or an ultimatum, but rather about a voluntary rejection of the Macedonian language and Macedonian nation. Macedonia does not have a choice and has to wait for the decision of the Hague-based court. What have the U.S. and Brussels been doing in the meantime,” the newspaper writes.
Vecer daily says that unlike the image of the new government and prime minister, who leaves the impression of a more pragmatic politician, the position of official Athens is apparently more extreme.

Macedonia, Greece Name Solution Sours
 

[url]http://turkeymacedonia.wordpress.com/2009/11/16/macedonia-greece-name-solution-sours/[/url]

Am i corect in thinking that Macedonia Called for Name negotiations to be frozen until Hague court judgment?

[QUOTE=Bill77;27134]Am i corect in thinking that Macedonia Called for Name negotiations to be frozen until Hague court judgment?[/QUOTE]
This is a tragic comedy.
Enough of this innuendo, when will Gruevski simply stand up and have the support of his entire coalition?