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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Gocka 10-22-2018 09:19 AM

Leftism and nationalism aren't mutually elusive. You forget that most of our most highly regarded revolutionaries were in fact politically leftists yet obviously the biggest nationalists.

Selling out your country has nothing to do with liberalism or conservatism.

The reason Levica is good for Macedonia is because so far they are the only political party who has not been tainted by outside interests or scandals, and they espouse a clearly nationalist agenda.

I wouldn't say Macedonia is being run by liberals as much as it is being run by traitors.

At this point I am less concerned about political orientation about social and economic issues as I am about someone stopping the madness.

DPMNE were supposedly "conservatives" how did that end up for NMK?

In NMK you can throw all those traditional labels out the window, they mean nothing.

Because of the actions of both SDS and DPMNE they should never be allowed near political office again.

I don't care if Levica is left right up or down as long as they can make a positive difference.

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;177438]We already have the left governing NMK. Socialism is alive in NMK Under the motto zivot za site, the Tirana platform, gay rights and anti nationalist programs currently taking place.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Karposh;177439]I was actually thinking that too but didn't mention it. "Levica" (Left Wing) - What a stupid name for, what I am assuming is meant to be a patriotic people's party. Everything that's wrong with the world today is because of left-wing political ideology. Are they really left-leaning or is it just an unfortunate choice for their name? Similar to the unfortunate name given to the Macedonian Minority's Political Party in Greece - The "Rainbow" Party.[/QUOTE]

Amphipolis 10-22-2018 09:36 AM

[QUOTE=Gocka;177440]Leftism and nationalism aren't mutually elusive. You forget that most of our most highly regarded revolutionaries were in fact politically leftists yet obviously the biggest nationalists. [/QUOTE]

The Left is anti-nationalist. They're just against NATO and European Union.

(what follows is google translation)

-Worried about the rise of nationalism after the referendum?

-Of course I'm worried, but I'm optimistic. The abstinence of minorities (especially the citizens of Albanian nationality) shows us that nationalism can be defeated. The fact that there is a world in Greece that stands by our side shows to the people of Macedonia that there is a world of other nationalities that supports its right to self-determination. The VMRO has not won anything politically at this time. Indeed, they did not even boycott the referendum, because, like any bourgeois party, they want to produce political goodwill if the deal is finally accepted and Macedonia joins NATO

[URL="https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnar4.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F10%2F12%2F%25CE%25B3%25CE%25B9%25CF%258C%25CE%25B2%25CE%25B1%25CE%25BD-%25CE%25BA%25CF%2581%25CE%25AC%25CE%25B3%25CE%25B9%25CE%25B5%25CF%2586%25CF%2583%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B9-%25CE%25BB%25CE%25AD%25CE%25B2%25CE%25B9%25CF%2584%25CF%2583%25CE%25B1-%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B4%25CE%25BF%25CE%25BE%25CE%25BF%2F&edit-text=&act=url"]https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fnar4.wordpress.com%2F2018%2F10%2F12%2F%25CE%25B3%25CE%25B9%25CF%258C%25CE%25B2%25CE%25B1%25CE%25BD-%25CE%25BA%25CF%2581%25CE%25AC%25CE%25B3%25CE%25B9%25CE%25B5%25CF%2586%25CF%2583%25CE%25BA%25CE%25B9-%25CE%25BB%25CE%25AD%25CE%25B2%25CE%25B9%25CF%2584%25CF%2583%25CE%25B1-%25CE%25B1%25CE%25B9%25CF%2583%25CE%25B9%25CE%25BF%25CE%25B4%25CE%25BF%25CE%25BE%25CE%25BF%2F&edit-text=&act=url[/URL]


==

vicsinad 10-22-2018 10:07 AM

Levica is indeed against nationalism. It seems like nationalism means something different for everyone. To them, nationalism is intertwined with chauvinism, as suggested in their party platform. This aligns neatly with their views against Greece having a say in how Macedonia names itself and Levica's views on self-determination. At the same time, their party platform indicates they are against confining people to nation-states. They want to abolish the ethnic-based political party system in Maceodnia, but support people being free to express their ethnic identity.

I'd say they resemble Macedonian left political movements of the 1930s more than they do modern-day left wing parties. Their site, in English their platform:

[URL="https://levica.mk/english/"]https://levica.mk/english/[/URL]


Right now, Levica has taken some principled positions regarding the constitutional name change and some ideals that are not far from those that many of us have espoused on this forum (again, in reference to the current debacle). Here's the article Amphipolis provided in its entirety:



[QUOTE]Jovan Krajevski, member of the Levica Central Committee

Interview by Panagiotis Xopodidis

[I]Zafe, the US and the EU have been quick to greet the failed referendum, while the VMRO did not dare to boycott it purely
What is the message from the outcome of the referendum on Zafef and the NATO accession process? [/I]

The message is a "slap" for the Zafe-Ahmeti coalition, [B]as they have erroneously assumed that they can easily convince the people that by changing their "name" they will earn better living conditions, free health, better jobs, clean air and land etc. government spent more than 3.5 million euros in shallow propaganda, joined a group of bourgeois politicians of the past, local capitalists, modern pop idols, the Orthodox Church - all this for nothing. Neither their slogan for a "European Macedonia" nor their cheap tricks (like that with EU membership, there will be better vaccines!) Have failed to convince the world that there is a bright future after September 30th.[/B] Yet, the reaction of government officials, including Zafeff, was to mark the referendum as successful despite 63% abstention. The next day, the US Embassy "confirmed" the success. [B]The imperialists are determined to put the Republic of Macedonia in NATO, whatever the democratic will of the people.
[/B]
[I]What are the characteristics of mass abstinence? [/I]

There are many reasons and they depend on the social point of view. A section of ethnic Albanian citizens, for example, abstained from solidarity with the Macedonian citizens, who were trying to preserve their dignity. The former know that they will need help if someone tries to break their own dignity, so they chose to stand by their fellow citizens. A section of the population, especially the most informed youngsters, felt that the government campaign was very aggressive and aimed to manipulate them, making it hostile to her. Also, a section of the population was against NATO membership. [B]However, the common element is the disappointment over the way the government handled the country's need for change, especially against the phenomena of corruption and nepotism. This government, reluctant and unable to cope with these problems, just kept behaving like the previous one. They did not even mention what they promised pre-election.
[/B]
[I]In the last days before the referendum we saw a parade of foreign leaders in Skopje to support the deal. [/I]

From the parade of foreign leaders i[B]t became clear that Macedonia's accession to NATO is not insignificant to the imperialist powers, as some might have thought. The NATO plan to build a strong base in the Balkans would be overturned if Macedonia decided not to join the Alliance[/B] (so it would be more difficult to join Serbia and Bosnia). Foreigners, as usual, promised economic and cultural prosperity within NATO and the EU. This, moreover, fits with the 27-year dominant propaganda in Macedonia, presenting the US as the future of the country and Russia as the evil, the enemy . [B]There is, of course, a world that feared this fantastic monster called "Russian influence" (overcoming the fact that there are no Russian NGOs and virtually no trace of Russian capital in the country apart from a co-ownership with Bulgaria of a gas station) and fears Russian interference . [/B]These two elements, then, are the whip and carrot that led a piece of people to vote on September 30th.

[I]What is your position on the attitude of minorities in the referendum?[/I]

As I said earlier, one of the most important reasons that led to their abstinence was solidarity with their fellow citizens. Excluding these, members of minorities are equally disappointed with the government as well as citizens of Macedonian nationality, if not more. Some of them are also against NATO. Some are also disgusted by the aggressive and manipulative campaign of the government.

[I]Worried about the rise of nationalism after the referendum? [/I]

Of course I'm worried, but I'm optimistic. The abstinence of minorities (especially the citizens of Albanian nationality) shows us that nationalism can be defeated. The fact that there is a world in Greece that stands by our side shows to the people of Macedonia that there is a world of other nationalities that supports its right to self-determination. The VMRO has not won anything politically at this time. Indeed, they did not even boycott the referendum, because, like any bourgeois party, they want to produce political goodwill if the deal is finally accepted and Macedonia joins NATO.

[I]What was the attitude of Levice at this time? [/I]

Levice's position was simple and straightforward: [B]We are against NATO and we support the right of our people to self-determination.[/B] Our campaign was meant to "we are against NATO even if we accept our constitutional name" and contained the dissemination of information material in the country, press conferences, attempts to block the referendum by legal means, participation in video debates, assemblies in many cities, activity on social networks, concerts against NATO, etc.

[I]Before the referendum there were internationalist initiatives involving Levice, NAP and other forces. How do you intend to continue? [/I]

These initiatives were critical for the Macedonian people to understand that they are not alone and that there is a world outside of Macedonia that supports them. They also showed what the left parties are really upholding and pursuing and that our struggle is different from that of the Social Democrats. W[B]e are planning a Balkan organization of left-wing parties and organizations that will jointly stand up against imperialism and chauvinism. [/B]
[/QUOTE]

Let's face it: all countries have left/right wings. I'd rather the left-wing in Macedonia join with Levica than stay with SDS based on what is known about Levica.

vicsinad 10-22-2018 10:26 AM

So, now to see what will happen with the Tirana Platform in the coming days.

Albanian politicians (not all) are proposing amendments to the Constitution to go alongside the name agreement. Will they not vote for the name agreement changes if their demands are not met? Could we end up with no name change, or both a name change and Tirana Platform complete realization very soon?


[URL="http://meta.mk/alijansa-za-albantsite-i-besa-na-kasami-ke-podnesat-amandmani-za-albantsite/"]http://meta.mk/alijansa-za-albantsite-i-besa-na-kasami-ke-podnesat-amandmani-za-albantsite/[/URL]

[QUOTE]Скопје, 22 октомври, 2018 - 17:11 (META)
Алијанса за Албанците (АА) и крилото на БЕСА предводено од Биљал Касами ќе поднесат амандмани за албанскиот јазик и за преамбулата, во текот на расправата за уставните измени кои се прават поради исполнување на обврските од Преспанскиот договор, јави Порталб.
ДУИ, крилото на БЕСА предводено од Африм Гаши, НДП и ДПА сметаат дека сега не е време за поднесување амандмани, туку е многу побитно да се отвори евроатлантскиот пат за Македонија. Артан Груби од ДУИ дури најавите за албански амандмани ги нарече неписмен, незналечки фолклоризам на ситните партии, отсуство на политичко-партиски идентитет, недостиг на знаење, некреативност и за неуспешен обид да се наметнат како фактор на мала врата, но го немаат клучот да го отклучат.
БЕСА на Касами ќе поднесе амандмани за целосна еднаквост на Албанците во Македонија и целосна официjализација на албанскиот јазик, а не како што се наведува сега, за јазикот што го зборуваат 20 отсто од граѓаните.
-Како политичка партија најавивме дека ќе бидеме дел од процесот на усвојување на уставните измени, при што ќе интервенираме со уставни амандмани за подобрување на правата на Албанците. Не можеме да прифатиме по 27 години да ги оставаме овие права за подобри времиња. Цениме дека сега е времето да се отворат овие прашања. Го поддржуваме Договорот од Преспа, но напоредно ќе интервенираме со амандмани откако Владата ќе го достави предлогот. Не кажуваме ништо ново, нема нови работи. Ќе бараме целосна еднаквост на Албанците во Македонија, Албанците не може да се третираат како малцинство и ќе бараме албанскиот јазик да биде официјален вели Фадил Зендели, заменик на Касами, за Порталб.
Тој не кажува дали својата поддршка за другите амандмани ќе ја условат со поддршката на нивните.
И Алијанса за Албанците, како што претходно најавуваше, ќе поднесе амандмани за албанскиот јазик и за преамбулата на Уставот.
Ние предупредивме дека ќе поднесеме амандмани, но првин ќе го видиме владиниот предлог, за да видиме што содржи, и потоа ќе решиме. Ќе поднесеме амандмани за преамбулата и за албанскиот јазик изјави пратеникот Сурија Рашиди за Порталб.
Албанските партии од владината коалиција, пак, порачуваат дека сега е најважно да се донесат уставните измени за да стапи на сила Договорот од Преспа и да се отвори евроатлантската патека на Македонија. Артан Груби од ДУИ порачува дека амандмани за албанското јазично прашање и за менување на преамбулата ќе бидат само дневно-политичка пропаганда и се продавање магла.
-Амандмани треба да се поднесуваат само за предложените членови на Уставот, а не и за други нешта. Овој неписмен, незналечки фолклоризам на ситните партии зборува за отсуство на политичко-партиски идентитет и зборува за недостиг на знаење, некреативност и за неуспешен обид да се наметнат како фактор на мала врата, но го немаат клучот да ја отклучат. Оние што ги затвораа очите и молчеа кога се остваруваа националните права, денес, заостанати и со незнаење, откако преспаа 15 години, се обидуваат да продаваат магла. Патот на земјата кон НАТО и ЕУ не смее на никој начин да биде попречен, а најмалку за сувопарна пропаганда вели Груби во изјава за Порталб.
И од БЕСА на Африм Гаши велат дека е битно да се усвои Преспанскиот договор и, според нив, сега нема поголем интерес за Албанците од влезот на Македонија во НАТО.
Весел Мемеди од НДП, вели дека не треба процесот на спроведување на Договорот од Преспа да се условува со други амандмани, оти тоа би им служело на деструктивните сили во земјава и во регионот.
И од ДПА велат дека не е променет нивниот став дека ќе го поддржат Договорот од Преспа, пишува Порталб.[/QUOTE]

Pelagonija 10-22-2018 04:02 PM

Well the other day I read in a Macedonian article that Albanian students from Ohrid were complaining that they have to travel to Struga in order to participate in Albanian language tuition, hint hint..

And more than likely they will implement the Tirana platform.

Niko777 10-22-2018 04:13 PM

[B][SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]Media in Macedonia are reporting that DPMNE is clearing out its executive committee of all those who disagree with party leader Hristijan Mickoski.

DPMNE's vice president and mayor of Kavadarci Mitko Jancev has just been ousted from the party.

Edit: Sasho Mijalkov has just been expelled from DPMNE

2nd edit: Nikola Todorov and Kostadin Bogdanov have been expelled
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B]

VMRO 10-22-2018 04:33 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;177449][B][SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]Media in Macedonia are reporting that DPMNE is clearing out its executive committee of all those who disagree with party leader Hristijan Mickoski.

DPMNE's vice president and mayor of Kavadarci Mitko Jancev has just been ousted from the party.

Edit: Sasho Mijalkov has just been expelled from DPMNE

2nd edit: Nikola Todorov and Kostadin Bogdanov have been expelled
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]

A little too late.

Bill77 10-22-2018 04:58 PM

[QUOTE=Niko777;177449][B][SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]Media in Macedonia are reporting that DPMNE is clearing out its executive committee of all those who disagree with party leader Hristijan Mickoski.



Edit: Sasho Mijalkov has just been expelled from DPMNE


[/COLOR][/SIZE][/B][/QUOTE]Sasho Mijalkov was the Intelligence Chief who allegedly is defecting to the Zaev camp. Mijalkov knows many secrets which i'm sure will no longer become secrets and throw our country into further turmoil. Stay tuned everyone.

Risto the Great 10-22-2018 04:59 PM

If only Mickoski knew his own stance.

Carlin 10-22-2018 05:08 PM

Panche Minov, MP from GROM, which is part of the opposition coalition led by VMRO-DPMNE stated tonight that he is leaving that parliamentary group while president is Mickoski, [B]because of the undemocratic way of replacing opponents[/B], after Mitko Janchev was dismissed.

[url]https://sdk.mk/index.php/makedonija/pancho-minov-ja-napushta-pratenichkata-grupa-na-vmro-dpmne-oti-e-razreshen-potpretsedatelot-mitko-janchev/[/url]

[I]Го прекинувам членството во коалицијата предводена од ВМРО-ДПМНЕ додека претседател е Христијан Мицкоски, поради недемократскиот начин на сменување на неистомисленици. Не се мешам во внатрепартиските работи, но повод е разрешувањето на градоначалникот на Кавадарци Митко Јанчев, кој е успешен градоначалник и со кого заедно ги добивме изборите во Кавадарци. Останувам опозиција и останувам член на ГРОМ, изјави Минов вечерва[/I]


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