If it is not a majority it is right there about. Because it is such a divisive and sensitive issue many people will not speak about it, making it that much harder to really know the numbers. I have at least a couple uncles who I know are in support but would never dare say so in my presence.

We are beyond numbers. Those who care need to take matters in to their own hands. This is now a moral issue and I don't give a damn where the majority is. The majority is not always right.

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;177301]Add the Albanians and gypsies then that’s a majority, Zaev shall implement the name change and get his nobel peace prize.[/QUOTE]

Sadly I am inclined to agree that if the indignity was made painless enough, that a vast majority would accept. I think that is the driving force to Zaev's position at the present. He has a vocal group of supporters that are by no means a majority, but a silent group of supporters who are more than happy to quietly sit by and allow this to happen and feel as they were not responsible. You could argue Zaev is conducting a mercy killing.

The real failure here is not Zaev. People like him and the things they do and say don't happen in a vacuum. Politicians are merely mirrors of the populations they serve. Zaev is no dictator and everything he has said and done has been in one way or another supported. The real failure here is how did the situation in the country get so bad that a piece of scum with legs like Zaev came to power and why is he not hanging from a flag pole for attempting one of the most visible acts of treason in human history.

We know Macedonians are full of any number of complexes that are still yet to be studied and classified, but it really makes me sad that so many of my people are willing to accept this level of indignity. and that so many of your people are cheering on the indignity,

After I take a breathe and let my anger and disgust settle, I truly pity those people. My dignity is one of the few things in this world that I couldn't live without. Because of their lack of self respect, they are destine to be treated like garbage for the rest of their lives. That is the real tragedy here.

If the armies of the world descended on Macedonia and pummeled them into submission I think all of us would understand, but to accept this under frankly historically low stakes and pressure is unforgivable and embarrassing.


[QUOTE=Risto the Great;177300]I wonder how many would accept Bulgarian citizenship if all the work necessary was to send an SMS message like this somewhere:

1. YES I AM BULGARIAN, GIVE ME THE PASSPORT
2. NO I AM MACEDONIAN, STICK IT UP YOUR PIPERKI

I reckon almost everyone in Macedonia would have done "1" if it was an easy task. But I am a pessimist.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;177303]If Kamenos is so patriotic then leave the government end of story end of deal instead of huffing and puffing like the Greek pig he is.[/QUOTE]

Actually Kamenos is right. Normally, the government shouldn't have taken this step, simply because it's not supported by the government itself (!?!?!) But what is normal in this government?

Tsipras implies (he's not able to say it clearly) that Kamenos tolerates that. Kamenos says he doesn't. Who would you believe?

[IMG]http://www.iefimerida.gr/sites/default/files/styles/in_article/public/xatzo800.jpg?itok=yBk_ls0F[/IMG]

[QUOTE=Gocka;177304] I have at least a couple uncles who I know are in support but would never dare say so in my presence. [/QUOTE]

I totally agree, funny that I was chatting to my Aunty last Sunday on viber, I told her that I will be moving to North Macedonia once the name is changed in order to get a high paying job(I have a very dry sense of humour) She was totally speechless.

Not sure what happened to the people, it’s like a mental disease has taken over everyone. Is it Facebook? Turski series? the lack of religious values? Liberalism? Migration to the bigger towns? There will always be cunts in society, but my experience when I was a young kid was different. When I use to visit my mums village, I used to feel warmth, respect and a sense of belonging. Today’s generation have nothing but hate and inajet.

Hate and inajet because we have all the iPhones!

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;177305]Actually Kamenos is right. Normally, the government shouldn't have taken this step, simply because it's not supported by the government itself (!?!?!) But what is normal in this government?

Tsipras implies (he's not able to say it clearly) that Kamenos tolerates that. Kamenos says he doesn't. Who would you believe?

[IMG]http://www.iefimerida.gr/sites/default/files/styles/in_article/public/xatzo800.jpg?itok=yBk_ls0F[/IMG][/QUOTE]

[url]https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1032925/greece-news-nikos-kotzias-alexis-tsipras-resignation-macedonia-name-change[/url]

The Defence Minister reportedly went on to brand his cabinet colleague a puppet of US billionaire financier George Soros.

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;177307]Hate and inajet because we have all the iPhones![/QUOTE]Oh they have iPhones too. Just don't ask them how they got it.



Meanwhile..... I'm reading Zaev's latest pitch on changing the Constitution: "Macedonia is getting married into a very rich family"


[img]https://vgy.me/iOMLYa.jpg[/img]


We all know what happened to Anna Nicole Smith afterward.

Transcript of the Greek government session: The fight with Kamenos over the name - the reason for the resignation of Kotzias

URL:
[url]https://alfa.mk/%D1%82%D1%80%D0%B0%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BF%D1%82-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B0-%D1%81%D0%BE-%D0%BA%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81-%D0%B7%D0%B0-%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%B5%D1%82/[/url]

Според транскриптот во кој имал увид грчкиот сајт „Ин“ разговорот течел на следниот начин:

Панос Каменос: Јас го задржувам моето мислење за името на Македонија. Јас нема да се приклучам на владиниот обид за притисок.

Никос Коѕиас: Вие се стремите да водите надворешна политика на сметка на владата и земјата, за да им послужи на вашите политички и лични аспирации!

Панос Каменос: Имаше потврда од Министерството за надворешни работи, дека прашањето за Скопје ќе дојде во парламентот по изборите …

Никос Коѕиас: Немаше такво нешто. Превземените чекори беа одобрени од страна на премиерот и надлежните органи. Можеби сте пропуштиле некои владини сесии.

Панос Каменос: Мојата проценка е дека договорот нема да оди во парламентот, бидејќи процесот во Скопје нема да заврши. Во секој случај, ние нема да се идентификуваме со Нова демократија во обид да ја собориме владата.

Алексис Ципрас: Договорот е со владата, а не со Министерството за надворешни работи.

По ова Коѕиас кој инсистира Преспанскиот договор да помине си даде оставка, Каменос кој не сака да слушне за истиот остана во Владата, а Ципрас прифаќајќи ја оставката на Коѕиас изјави дека негова цел е „со сите сили да помогне за успешно завршување на Договорот од Преспа“. Оваа парадоксална ситуација се разјаснува со фактот дека Ципрас без Каменос нема мнозинство во парламентот односно ако тој го напушти паѓа и Владата, а неговото останување во кабинетот значи дека Владата ќе трае до гласањето во Парламентот ако до него воопшто дојде, а тогаш може да се надева дека бојкотот од „Независни Грци“ ќе го надомести со гласовите на опозициската Потами која е волна да го прифати Договорот од Нивици. Сепак се јавува нов проблем, бидејќи Коѕиас контролира минимум пет пратеници од коалицијата во СИРИЗА кои поради неговата оставка би можеле да го променат и ставот за Преспанскиот договор односно да не гласаат за истиот кога за тоа ќе дојде време.

[B]Disturbing question of Greek identity rears its head over Macedonia[/B]

Greece Letter: Country risks getting bogged down in history when it needs a new future

Wed, Oct 17, 2018
Richard Pine

URL:
[url]https://www.irishtimes.com/news/world/europe/disturbing-question-of-greek-identity-rears-its-head-over-macedonia-1.3665738[/url]

The referendum in Macedonia on September 30th was a massive Yes vote for a change of name to “Republic of North Macedonia”, but the low turnout (less than 40 per cent) is being interpreted as, in effect, a No vote by the 60 per cent who abstained.

Nevertheless, there remain huge domestic issues in this context for neighbouring Greece, most of them the legacy of its long history.

If the Macedonian parliament accepts the referendum result and amends its constitution to remove what many Greeks see as irredentist claims on parts of historic Macedonia that remain in Greece, then the Greeks in their turn must accept that change. But [B]Anel, the nationalist minor partner in the current Athens coalition, will oppose this, precipitating a collapse of government and a general election[/B].

History, that cruel parent, raises its head with the question: do the Greeks accept “North Macedonia”, when the new country represents only 50 per cent of historic Macedonia, with 40 per cent still in northern Greece (including Thessaloniki, which has been part of Greece since only 1913), and another 10 per cent in Bulgaria.

It is more than a polite – or politic – bow to the lessons of history, since it also calls into question the bigger issue of what makes Greeks Greek. The agreement that will be voted on in the Skopje and Athens parliaments recognises the Macedonian language and ethnicity as givens, but this is disputed by many Greeks, who declare “Macedonia is Greek”.

[B]The Greek insistence on the relevance of ancient history is even being described as “fake news”[/B], as if it were a red herring to confuse the modern-day issues. [B]But there are history lessons still waiting to be learned.[/B]

Total disaster

[B]Almost 100 years ago, in 1921-22, with the encouragement of Britain and France, Greece invaded Turkey, in the belief that it had a right to do so under international treaties. This was to be the culmination of the Megali Idea or Great Concept, a process of enlargement of territory with the Trumpish slogan “Make Greece Great Again”.[/B]

[B]It was a total disaster, as the Turkish army not only inflicted a humiliating defeat on the Greeks but also destroyed the largely Greek city of Smyrna (today’s Izmir) and caused the evacuation of more than one million ethnic Greeks from western Turkey (Anatolia).[/B]

But in addition to increasing Greece’s population [B]25 per cent[/B], the Anatolian Catastrophe, as the events of 1922 have become known, split Greece down the middle because the national ideas of restoration and expansion had been shown to be false, bringing into question issues such as identity and purpose in a state not yet 100 years old.

In its wake came a series of domestic and international catastrophes, including a dictatorship in 1935, the second World War, the civil war of 1945-49 and the military junta of 1967-74. In a sense, these (with the obvious exception of the world war) can be traced back to the 1922 disaster. And the Megali Idea still hasn’t gone away.

[B]Greece’s central position in the Balkans makes its relations with all its neighbours – Albania, Macedonia, Bulgaria, Turkey and Cyprus – susceptible to influence by the superpowers, especially when its porous and fragile borders are concerned. Greece and Macedonia, then as now, are the playthings of the superpowers manipulating relationships in the Balkans and the Levant.[/B]

Modern flight

Following the economic crisis since 2010, there is another enforced Greek migration, but this time it is outward: [B]at least 500,000 young people have left Greece since 2008[/B], due not only to economic deprivation and the near impossibility of finding worthwhile employment at a living wage, but also to the disillusion that successive governments seem to offer neither care nor concern for their welfare. This “brain drain” is depriving Greece of its future.

[B]Greece urgently needs a new future, but at the same time it threatens to deny that privilege to its northern neighbour[/B]. The creation, at last, of a “Republic of North Macedonia”, makes it even clearer that [B]the long-standing and profoundly disturbing question of Greek identity is once more a national and international breaking point[/B].

The outcome of the votes in the Skopje and Athens parliaments affects not only the relationship between the two states but also whether or not Macedonia can proceed to membership of Nato and the EU, openly advocated by the US.

Russia, for its part, is allegedly making efforts to affect the outcome in order to keep the state within the Russian orbit of influence, so really nothing much has changed since Russia supported Greek independence, at the expense of the Ottomans, back in the 1820s.

We may, with the Bosnian conflict of the 1990s, have brought an end to military confrontations in the Balkans, but diplomacy is no respecter of borders and employs other means than the gun to achieve its aims. Whether this will lead to another “catastrophe” is anyone’s guess.

We’ve never been good at articulating our side of the argument, no where does it mention in that article that the majority of those Anatolian Greeks eventually migrated into agean Macedonia.

I think the Greeks got within 30ks of Ankara hence stretched their supply lines, they should have stopped advancing.

Day of reckoning? The vote is supposed to happen in 15 minutes...supposedly.

[URL="https://www.alsat-m.tv/mk/седницата-одложена-за-15-часот/"]https://www.alsat-m.tv/mk/седницата-одложена-за-15-часот/[/URL]