[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;174293]no matter what breadcrumbs they may throw at you.[/QUOTE]

But its the breadcrumbs that they crave...cause they're free and you can eat them out of bag while sitting at your local café drinking a Heineken that you Australian/American cousin bought for you. Free sh*t people.

[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;174292]For the deal to be put into full effect, Macedonian citizens must support it at the [B][U]plebiscite[/U][/B][/QUOTE]

Again, this will be a [B][U]NON-BINDING[/U] REFERENDUM[/B], basically a glorified survey, which means even if the referendum results with a resounding NO to the agreement from the people, the government has no obligation to act in accordance with those results and can continue to implement the agreement irrespective of the wishes expressed by the majority. That's how much the government and opposition care about what the people actually want and say.

[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;174293]Anyone looking towards DPNE to save them needs to be lobotomised.

They have no intention of actually doing anything of substance to prevent this agreement going ahead. The only interest they have is to promote the perception that they are against it. Nothing more than that.

People have to understand that:

DPNE is not your saviour

SDS is not your saviour

They are the corruptive cancers which seek to keep you imprisoned mentally, physically and financially in order to steal your wealth for themselves and have you sell your soul to the lowest bidder.

So long as either of these two parties continue to hold power, your lives will never change or prosper. if you want a better life for yourself and your children, the only option the people have is to take matters into their own hands and create it for themselves.

The real decision the people have to make is simply whether they want more of the same (SDS or DPNE) or something better. Anything SDS or DPNE bring with them or try to sell to you (i.e. EU or NATO member) is primarily in the interests of benefiting themselves and strengthening their current elitist positions of wealth and dominance over your society, it is not in the interests of you, the people, no matter what breadcrumbs they may throw at you.

Again the people have to decide whether it is more of the same or something better, and if it is the latter then they have to stand up together and take it with their own two hands, because no one else is going to give it to you.[/QUOTE]

I don’t believe anyone here believes that VMRO or SDS will save anything.

What I believe is that most people here are hoping VMROs spite and hatred of SDSM will block the process of the name change in the immediate future before the FYROMIANS start driving around with NMK plates..

Until jobs are no longer tied into political parties the status quo will continue.

[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;174295]Again, this will be a [B][U]NON-BINDING[/U] REFERENDUM[/B], basically a glorified survey, which means even if the referendum results with a resounding NO to the agreement from the people, the government has no obligation to act in accordance with those results and can continue to implement the agreement irrespective of the wishes expressed by the majority. That's how much the government and opposition care about what the people actually want and say.[/QUOTE]There's no constitutional requirement to even have referendum. The government is only required to put it up for 'public debate' (Article 131). 'Public debate' is such a vague term it could encompass everything, but it definitely does not require a referendum.

All this talk of constitutional procedure is pinning hopes on the very document that is being ignored in the whole process.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;174287]The only thing that is not clear to me now is the question of Macedonian ethnicity. The agreement does not mention it anywhere (granted its not something you can actually legislate on). The agreement stipulates our new nationality (which under international law is citizenship). Citizens will now be "[I]Macedonians/Citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia[/I]", but the Preamble for example talks about the Macedonian people in an ethnic sense. I'm sure Zaev will interpret 'nationality' at its broadest possible level and include ethnicity, meaning that we will be ethnic [I]Macedonians/Citizens of the Republic of North Macedonia [/I]causing a ridiculousness beyond comprehension for all of the obvious reasons.[/QUOTE] This is part of the collective Fyromonian genius narrative though. How to know you're something when everything else you do and say is completely opposite.

My sons used to play "Opposite game" when they were little kids. Luckily my kids grew out of it. Everything they would say was the opposite of what they did. Fyromseverdonia is still playing the game.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;174285]Legally it cannot happen according to the below.[/QUOTE]

Earlier in this thread, I think I listed what they could actually amend. All of this fails constitutionally. But where there is a will to destroy a nation, there are Fyromseverdonians waiting to do it.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;174297]There's no constitutional requirement to even have referendum. The government is only required to put it up for 'public debate' (Article 131). 'Public debate' is such a vague term it could encompass everything, but it definitely does not require a referendum.

All this talk of constitutional procedure is pinning hopes on the very document that is being ignored in the whole process.[/QUOTE]

My intention was to point out that the results of the referendum have no legally binding consequence on the process for amending the constitution.

“[B]The Rules of Procedures[/B]” also give some further insight on the process of how the assesmbly enacts any change in the constitution. These are detailed in Articles 199 to 209.

Articles 210 to 215 may also be of interest as they relate to Accountability of the President

Tomche, Article 73 stipulates that a decision made by referendum is binding.

In which case, the Referendum of 1991 (as it is referred to in the Constitution) which also determined the name of the country, is legally binding.

It is unclear (to me) whether (and if so, why) a vote in the Assembly (by majority, or two-thirds majority) can be considered more important or of a higher order than a referendum.

I would expect that only a Referendum can change a decision made by a referendum.

[QUOTE=Rogi;174305]I would expect that only a Referendum can change a decision made by a referendum.[/QUOTE] Not in Macedonia. [I]So Skopsko, se e mozno[/I].

I think Macedonian politicians were accustomed to being able to easily make constitutional amendments at a whim under communism and that is one of the reasons that the process for amendment was given such a low bar under the 1991 Constitution. The current process is virtually the same as the 1974 Constitution (Articles 439-443)

[url]http://www.slvesnik.com.mk/Issues/0AF2E0456C964935B7705FB5BF6F31F9.pdf[/url]

Tomche,

Also, not only does it not stipulate whether the Referendum will be a consultative one (i.e. a survey), or a binding one (as defined in the Constitution)... The Agreement Zaev has signed with Greece also makes the Referendum an optional condition, only if he chooses for it to take place:

"в) Втората страна, [B]доколку така одлучи[/B], ќе одржи референдум."


They can change their mind and decide not to hold a referendum at all.