[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;171270]

I think both countries are now aiming to make sure any proposal doesn't go to a referendum but is decided by parliament (which is contrary to the stance both SDS and DPNE have historically expressed)[/QUOTE]

This is what it seems like.

Bravo Zaev, you would achieve what others have been trying to avoid: to capitulate.

I don't understand why the people who live in Macedonia are okay with this. Where is the pride for your nation? I have two uncles in Macedonia who support this nonsense stating that we are European and need to join the european community. WTF? My relatives who are against it believe it is only a matter of time before the name change happens. What is the general feeling in Macedonia are they going to sell out?

I can tell you the latest news from Greece:

-Independent Greeks (the 2nd Government Party) will not support the agreement

-The Government is not willing to go to a referendum

-Some initial demonstrations are organized (each Sunday) in Thessaloniki, yet held by rather unknown organizations

-Church also has started to mobilize against an agreement (today there was a Gov. statement against the Church because of that)

-New Democracy (the main opposition party) seems to agree though they are afraid of political cost or people leaving the party and making a new one.

[QUOTE=Amphipolis;171280]I can tell you the latest news from Greece:

-Independent Greeks (the 2nd Government Party) will not support the agreement

-The Government is not willing to go to a referendum

-Some initial demonstrations are organized (each Sunday) in Thessaloniki, yet held by rather unknown organizations

-Church also has started to mobilize against an agreement (today there was a Gov. statement against the Church because of that)

-New Democracy (the main opposition party) seems to agree though they are afraid of political cost or people leaving the party and making a new one.[/QUOTE]

If it wasn't for greek recalcitrance and their innate donkey stubbornness, the gypsy politicians on our side would have sold the name a long time ago...

LOL I said as much in another thread, that if they fail to change the name it will only be because Greece wouldn't accept any name with Macedonia in it. Thank god for racist and chauvinistic Greeks, with out them, Macedonia wouldn't exist.

But lets not celebrate too early. Because I wouldn't put it past our cowardly bunch to accept a name without Macedonia in it, which Greece would certainly accept.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;171282]If it wasn't for greek recalcitrance and their innate donkey stubbornness, the gypsy politicians on our side would have sold the name a long time ago...[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Gocka;171283]Thank god for racist and chauvinistic Greeks, with out them, Macedonia wouldn't exist.[/QUOTE]That's probably more true than you realise. The fact that Macedonia survived the first few years of independence and didn't revert to some form of union with Serbia probably had more to do with wider Macedonian mobilisation against Greek chauvinism than any real desire for freedom. Yes, there will always be a core group of patriots, but Macedonian nationalism (the real meaning of the word not the media meaning of the word) has been described as more of a reactionary survival instinct than some form of pride or desire for freedom. And I tend to agree with that observation for the most part.

While Greece's contrived name issue is quite the masterstroke, what they failed to realise is that their action only prolonged Macedonia's existence and drove Macedonian nationalism. If they just did nothing and waited it out, I hate to say that Macedonians may very well have joined some form of confederation very early on. I know that my own passion for Macedonian rights grew out of anger at what Greece was doing. Had it not been for that, I probably would not have found much interest in a country 20,000 km away, other than knowing that's were my parents came from.

But admittedly, that passion is slowly dying - if it isn't dead already. The past 25 years have taught me that this current generation of Macedonians will do anything to stay enslaved. What rot! Macedonia now feels more like an academic curiosity of a failed state and a dying identity. A massive disappointment to say the least.

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;171284]That's probably more true than you realise. The fact that Macedonia survived the first few years of independence and didn't revert to some form of union with Serbia probably had more to do with wider Macedonian mobilisation against Greek chauvinism than any real desire for freedom. Yes, there will always be a core group of patriots, but Macedonian nationalism (the real meaning of the word not the media meaning of the word) has been described as more of a reactionary survival instinct than some form of pride or desire for freedom. And I tend to agree with that observation for the most part.

While Greece's contrived name issue is quite the masterstroke, what they failed to realise is that their action only prolonged Macedonia's existence and drove Macedonian nationalism. If they just did nothing and waited it out, I hate to say that Macedonians may very well have joined some form of confederation very early on. I know that my own passion for Macedonian rights grew out of anger at what Greece was doing. Had it not been for that, I probably would not have found much interest in a country 20,000 km away, other than knowing that's were my parents came from.

But admittedly, that passion is slowly dying - if it isn't dead already. The past 25 years have taught me that this current generation of Macedonians will do anything to stay enslaved. What rot! Macedonia now feels more like an academic curiosity of a failed state and a dying identity. A massive disappointment to say the least.[/QUOTE]

Well said.

From my understanding, the recent push for a referendum as well as the organisation of protests is mostly coming from the Greek diaspora who are still looking to promote the Greek Governments stance from 1992 i.e. name must exclude any reference to Macedonia

The conspiracy theorist in me can't help but feel that the best way to stop a referendum in RoM (which has the potential to humiliate the Greek Government), is to threaten with a referendum in RoG, which would no doubt see any proposal fail. Seeing this is contrary to the aim of RoM's government, it would be in their interests to "be fair" about the process and make sure both sides leave the decision out of the hands of the people...

I do not see the advantage for Greece if Macedonia were to gain entry into the EU. Therefore I do not quite understand the willingness for Greece to match Macedonia's willingness to leave this out of the hands of the people via a referendum.

What would be in for Greece if Macedonia joins the EU and calls itself Nova Macedonia or any other name for that matter?