Cheers MK, got the picture.

[QUOTE=julie;83378]Cheers MK, got the picture.[/QUOTE]
Kukla, all the same this is why it's up to us to stop them dead in their tracks.

[QUOTE=Makedonska_Kafana;83379]Kukla, all the same this is why it's up to us to stop them [B]dead in their tracks[/B].[/QUOTE]

this is where they belong, all traitors to the Macedonian cause bro

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;83354]Bill, it is not indecent or non-peaceful of Macedonia to pull out of these negotiations in the interest of our national integrity and honour. What's the worst that could happen? The shame needs to end now.[/QUOTE]The worst that can happen is the opposition party (SDSM) come into power then god help us. Countries out side our borders can do jack shit. The Ethnic Albanians can do jack shit. Its the Macedonians in Macedonia that i am worried about. How would they react? will these Serbian flag waving fools use this withdrawal and twist it abuse it to their favour, and will the strong percentage, "that are ignorant" fall for it?

SOM, looking at your latest thread, we have Patriots, Traitors, enemies, ignorant. Now if Ivanov or Gruevski firstly has the power to walk away and they do, would you agree we would have Patriots in one corner, and the rest (Traitors, enemies, ignorant) in the other corner. Now would you think the rest, would outnumber the Patriots? If so, then where do we go from there.

[QUOTE=Bill77;83381]The worst that can happen is the opposition party (SDSM) come into power then god help us. Countries out side our borders can do jack shit. The Ethnic Albanians can do jack shit. Its the Macedonians in Macedonia that i am worried about. How would they react? will these Serbian flag waving fools use this withdrawal and twist it abuse it to their favour, and will the strong percentage, "that are ignorant" fall for it?

SOM, looking at your latest thread, we have Patriots, Traitors, enemies, ignorant. Now if Ivanov or Gruevski firstly has the power to walk away and they do, would you agree we would have Patriots in one corner, and the rest (Traitors, enemies, ignorant) in the other corner. Now would you think the rest, would outnumber the Patriots? If so, then where do we go from there.[/QUOTE]

No offence Bill but you should stop your political BOUNCING and take a position one way or the other because you are making me dizzy with all your flip-flops! How could you blame Macedonian in Macedonia when your position is heavily flawed?

Did you not support the campaign below and even donate money to it? What were you supporting then and why have you stopped supporting it now?

[B]Macedonians Demand End to Name Negotiations
Macedonian Human Rights Movement International
August 26, 2010[/B]
MHRMI and AMHRC Press Release

Toronto, Canada and Melbourne, Australia – Macedonians in the Republic of Macedonia, and throughout the world, are showing overwhelming support for the "Our Name is Macedonia" ad campaign, which demands that Macedonia end all negotiations with Greece over its name.

Ads are appearing in print and online editions of major newspapers, television commercials are airing, billboards in the centre of Skopje are going up, and hundreds of thousands of flyers are being distributed throughout the country.

MHRMI and AMHRC will also hold its third press conference announcing another update to the campaign.

However, some Macedonian media outlets have decided to ignore the message of the ad campaign and publish articles attacking the Macedonian diaspora for initiating it, and even criticizing the child that appears in the ad in a desperate attempt to detract from the message. They have decided to continue their own campaign of scare-mongering, trying to convince the Macedonian public that a name change is necessary in order to enter NATO and the EU.

This ad campaign is not about embracing or rejecting NATO and EU membership. It is about finally putting an end to the nonsensical "name negotiations".

The focus never should have been on Macedonia to compromise its own name and identity. The focus should be on NATO, the EU, and its member-states upholding their principles, supporting and recognizing Macedonia. NATO and the EU should reprimand Greece for handcuffing them based on its xenophobic policies.

Countries that have recognized Macedonia must publicly support it and not call for "compromise".

The first UN mediator for the name dispute, Robin O'Neil, said that "Macedonia must not and will not change its name in order to appease Greece. If Macedonia succumbs to pressures and changes its name, such events will only give more firepower to Greece until it reaches its final goal - Macedonia to vanish from the map."

Even changing the name bilaterally would change it permanently everywhere. Countries that have recognized Macedonia have said "If a bilateral solution is reached, we will abide by that decision and use the new name for Macedonia".


By continuing the negotiations, we are telling the world "we will change our name". We have the power to end this. 127 countries have recognized Macedonia, including 4/5 United Nations Security Council members. Stop negotiating our own name.

[B][COLOR="Red"]MHRMI and AMHRC call on Macedonians, in the Republic of Macedonia and abroad, to join our call for Macedonia to immediately cease name negotiations and demand immediate international recognition.[/COLOR][/B]

To sign on or see the ad campaign, please visit:

Our Name is Macedonia

[url]www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia[/url]

English ad

[url]www.mhrmi.org/images/campaign.pdf[/url]

Macedonian ad

[url]www.mhrmi.org/images/campaign_m.pdf[/url]

To put a banner on your website, please visit:

[url]www.mhrmi.org/our_name_is_macedonia/web[/url]

[url]http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/view/179484[/url]

No offence taken mate.

Yes Indi i supported it, and i still do. But that does not mean i should close my eyes to what might be an outcome if our wish comes true.

You for one are aware how the mentality works with some citizens in the Republic. When i once asked that the citizens should rebel and take to the streets, you sounded that it was a lost cause because they are all "state manufactured" or something along those lines. Another words, you also agree with me, we have big problems with the mentality off many citizens in Macedonia. Now is that flip flopping? or just calling a spade a spade.

Sorry if you took it another way. Its also frustrating for me when i can't properly explain my self.



And if you have issues with my defending Ivanov posts, before i explain it, let me tell you i could also post negative points about him don't wary about that. But in this case regarding his speech infront of parliament, you got to give a little credit where credit is due. He finally did say a few things that should be encouraged and we should be, just quietly celebrating. If people can't see those particular comments he made encouraging, then i could not take those people seriously.

[QUOTE=julie;83380]this is where they belong, all traitors to the Macedonian cause bro[/QUOTE]
Julie, this is where the UMD has failed us very badly as an NGO. They are very quick (hardly) to seek Macedonian human rights in Greece, Bulgaria and Albania yet say nothing about our rights within the Republic of Macedonia - Interim Agreement, name issue etc.

Working with criminals (politicians) is the same as being one yourself.

[QUOTE="Bill77"]The worst that can happen is the opposition party (SDSM) come into power then god help us.......will these Serbian flag waving fools use this withdrawal and twist it abuse it to their favour, and will the strong percentage, "that are ignorant" fall for it?[/QUOTE]
Most Macedonians have already stated that they are not prepared to change their state identity for the sake of entering the EU. Is it that unthinkable to pull out? What if such a move reinvigorated the determination of Macedonians to claim their integrity as a people at the table of nations?

[QUOTE]SOM, looking at your latest thread, we have Patriots, Traitors, enemies, ignorant. Now if Ivanov or Gruevski firstly has the power to walk away and they do, would you agree we would have Patriots in one corner, and the rest (Traitors, enemies, ignorant) in the other corner. Now would you think the rest, would outnumber the Patriots? If so, then where do we go from there.[/QUOTE]
Bill, I don't know what the percentage of each group is, that is why I started the other thread. What I can say is that those in the 'ignorant' group could easily be swayed to become patriotic were we to have a leadership that actually respected itself in the international arena. It is DPMNE's lack of integrity, pride and principle that allows SDS to worm its way into the minds of Macedonians in the republic.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;83462]Most Macedonians have already stated that they are not prepared to change their state identity for the sake of entering the EU. Is it that unthinkable to pull out? What if such a move reinvigorated the determination of Macedonians to claim their integrity as a people at the table of nations? [/QUOTE] no its not unthinkable at all. All i was trying to do was quash any scaremongering theories that we would somehow be dealt with by someone outside our borders. Then i just gave a most likely scenario imo, of what would be the worst that can happen . If anyone can't see there want be some sort of turmoil amongst the political parties and there followers, which will then possibly drag in the neutrals, then thats there opinion and thats fair enough. But its better to discuss the possible scenarios now then to scratch our heads later.
I just believe my scenario is more realistic than Greece or Bulgaria invading us.

SOM, let me for a second touch on this point, You said [B]"Most Macedonians have already stated that they are not prepared to change their state identity for the sake of entering the EU."[/B]

That is fact and its very good news. what i am concerned about, is, it does not specify if most Macedonians want to pull out of the talks! it only specifies "No name change for sake of entering EU" That could mean keep the negotiation going just don't you dare buckle and sell our name. The Government can claim Thats exactly what they currently doing (not changing our name). there is a difference. Put that statement up against the AMHRC campaign we all backed "[B]Macedonians Demand End to Name Negotiations[/B]" is much more clearer.
Do you see where i am getting at with this?
I would prefer a survey and people to speak out and promote the campaign by AMHRC. That would guarantee "no change to their state identity for the sake of entering the EU".

[QUOTE="Bill77"]That is fact and its very good news. what i am concerned about, is, it does not specify if most Macedonians want to pull out of the talks![/QUOTE]
Good point Bill, there should be such a survey held in Macedonia.