[QUOTE=Mastika;44290]...Not necesserily, the interim accord does not mean that the name of the Republic of Macedonia must be altered before it is passed...[/quote]

Before what is passed?

[quote]The name could very much stay the same,...[/quote]

The same as what? FYROM? That's what it currently is for international organizations.

[quote]..however for this we would need Greece's approval, which I think that eventually Macedonia will get (i'm not saying that it should need it). It requires a mutually acceptable solution, eventually that mutually acceptable solution will be in our favour (that is what i believe).[/QUOTE]

If the Macedonian state has accepted a situation where it requires Greece's approval for whatever name it chooses then IT IS NOT A SOVEREIGN STATE.

Good look to you and your brilliant Gligorov-inspired government in getting Greece's approval for your favored name. Just don't expect understanding or support from all of us when you take it upon yourself to make Greece a partner in determining the name and destiny of a state that generations of Macedonians have lived and died for, and thereby compromising and limiting the right to self-determination and self-identification for which Macedonians under Greek rule face persecution to this day.

[QUOTE=aleksandrov;44297]If Macedonia has accepted a situation where it needs Greece's approval for whatever name it choose then IT IS NOT a sovereign country.[/QUOTE]
Ditto for the imposition of the framework agreement.

Mastika
I am not having a go at you, more of trying to give you adifferent perspective on the same subject - so don't get offended, there are obvious flaws in your post I would like to point out:-

"1. The sovereignty of the republic of Macedonia is the right of the citizens of that republic to decide on how to rule the country, which they do in the form of electing representatives to the parliament. Will the negotiations affect Macedonias sovereignty? No, unless they are forced upon the country without the will of the citizens."

Just like the acronym FYROM was forced upon the citizens without their will! Or the Interim Accord was forced upon them without their will!

"2. Yes of course there are human rights issues revolving around these discussions, especially revolving the language and ethnicity, which the Greeks have advocated. However, the Government and the elected representatives have expressed the will of the people that the language/identity of the citizens is NOT for negotiation. The government does not have the authority to change our ethnic/cultural identity, nor is it interested in doing this. This is why it annoys me when people claim that the government is negotiating the identity, when in reality it has no desire/interest in doing so."

The identity of the Macedonian people was self determined as "The Republic of Macedonia" was it not? Has this been implemented unilaterally? And if this is the self determined name then why are there any discussions into other alternatives or compromises or negotiations or geographical determinants or bilateral use? You fail to see that any discussions relating to the self determined name are "negotiations"!
What annoys me is people who can't see the forrest for the trees!

"3. Yes human rights are designed to put everyone on an equal footing."

What equal footing would you be talking about here? Do you really think the Macedonian people in Aegean, Pirin or Vardarska Macedonia have human rights on an equal footing?

"4. Of course not, however if an election was called for tomorrow the citizens of Macedonia would not be "under duress". If a free and fair election is held and the citizens choose to change the name, then they have the right to do so (that is also the day i stop calling myself a Macedonian). The citizens of Macedonia have the right to decide on their name, and in the end they and them only will decide on the constitutional name of the country."

You cannot be serious here! Not under duress? how much unemployment, lack of services, partitioning, media manipulation, political betrayal & shiptari do you think the ROM can take without being under duress, while the tainted smell of success if we join NATO & the EU is waived under their noses with the promises of economic salvation!
The name of their country has already been decided, hasn't it? Do you now see why this has taken 20 years?

"Not necesserily, the interim accord does not mean that the name of the Republic of Macedonia must be altered before it is passed. The name could very much stay the same, however for this we would need Greece's approval, which I think that eventually Macedonia will get (i'm not saying that it should need it). It requires a mutually acceptable solution, eventually that mutually acceptable solution will be in our favour (that is what i believe)."

You need to go and have another read of the interim accord, in more detail! We would not need Greece's approval if we exercised our right to terminate the agreement! It does not require a mutually acceptable solution, it requires the intestinal fortitude to say "no - it's not up for discussion"!

offline till later

[QUOTE=aleksandrov;44297] Good look to you and your brilliant Gligorov-inspired government in getting Greece's approval for your favored name. Just don't expect understanding or support from all of us when you take it upon yourself to make Greece a partner in determining the name and destiny of a state that generations of Macedonians have lived and died for, and thereby compromising and limiting the right to self-determination and self-identification for which Macedonians under Greek rule face persecution to this day.[/QUOTE]

Look Aleksandrov, I acknowledge that the Interim Agreement is generally bullshit. However, my comments arose from a critical perspective recognising the government as the legitimate voice of the citizens of Macedonia. Instead the topic of discussion has drifted to the sovereignty of the Republic of Macedonia. We could very easily leave the negotiations, however we would get a lot of flack and criticism from many countries in doing so. Greece again could impose a crippling blockade, and affect the internal workings of the country. Does this mean that Macedonia would no longer be sovereign? In this sense, NO country is sovereign. One could argue that the UN, EU, Trade blocs, African Union, all impinge on a country's sovereignty, because they affect the way a country deals its internal workings. Does Greece have the right to interefere in Macedonias internal workings? No, but that is just the way it is. The world is not fair, I am glad that there is a current government who is working to try and prevent the interference from foreign powers, however in the same way by joining NATO and EU, again Macedonia's sovereignty will also be violated.

Makedonche I am far from offended. Debate and questioning are good, that is the reason why i have chosen to post my ideas on this forum. :)

Does this remind you of anything?

I am not trying to be Funny or show disrespect to this thread.
ama neko pat vaka mi se chini evropa ni prat.
EU style of Democratic Name Negotiations.



[url=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nf51mJfGQrs]YouTube - Democratic negotiations of the name Macedonia Demokratski pregovori za imeto !!![/url]

Bill77 I have already in the past written to President Obama citing paralels like this one between Black-American history and the plight of the Macedonians. It’s a good clip and how true it is with the then embargo the recent recall of Macedonian wines and the ongoing veto.

Pelister, I dont think real estate will increase, on the contrary I see it falling and economically it would be disastrous - enter Greeks buying up land in ROM , and another annexure following ....

[QUOTE=julie;46193]Pelister, I dont think real estate will increase, on the contrary I see it falling and economically it would be disastrous - enter Greeks buying up land in ROM , and another annexure following ....[/QUOTE]

I would like to see them end the negotiations immediately, and draw the attention of the world to the fact that these New Greeks are engaging in Identity Theft.

Absolutely, I have always been against negotiating our name and our identity

Bulgaria Wants Guarantees over Macedonia's New Name
 

[url]http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=115060[/url]

Politics » Diplomacy
President: Bulgaria Wants Guarantees over Macedonia's New Name
Diplomacy | April 9, 2010, Friday


Bulgarian President Parvanov (left) and Plovdiv Mayor Atanasov (right) who is also the informal leader of the VMRO-NIE party met on Friday. Photo by BGNES
Bulgaria’s President Georgi Parvanov has declared that the adoption of a new name by FYROM must entail guarantees against territorial claims.

Parvanov met Friday with the Plovdiv Mayor Slavcho Atanasov and Petko Atanasov, leader of the newly set up political party VMRO-NIE, to discuss Bulgaria’s position on the Greece-Macedonia name dispute after Greece recently suggested that it approved “Northern Macedonia” as the new name for FYROM.

Petko Atanasov has demanded from the Bulgarian President to define clearly the position of the Bulgarian state with respect to the new name of Macedonia, and to clarify the conditions under which Bulgaria will support Macedonia for its accession to NATO and the EU.

The VMRO-NIE leader has stressed that the Macedonian media and institutions should give up using hate language with respect to Bulgaria, and should stop “falsifying Bulgaria’s history.”

Bulgarian President Georgi Parvanov has declared that Bulgaria will welcome the settlement of the 20-year dispute between Greece and FYROM over the name of the latter.

However, he has stated explicitly that the issue has to be settled through a mechanism that did not allow Macedonia to raise subsequent claims for the Bulgarian state.

Parvanov made it clear that he has notified the Greek PM George Papandreou and the Macedonian President George Ivanov about the Bulgarian position that the new name of Macedonia, which is connected with a geographical region, needs to include explicit guarantees for the Bulgarian state.

Both the President and the VMRO-NIE party have expressed their position against the rise of any

radical nationalist movements in Bulgaria.

The Bulgarian party VMRO-BND is considered a descendant of the Internal Macedonian-Adrianople Organization that fought for the liberation of the regions of Macedonia and Thrace from the Ottoman Empire at the beginning of the 20th century. The VMRO-NIE party was set up in March after a large number of the VMRO-BND members left it, and went ahead for the new structure.

The cause of the rift was a dispute VMRO-BND party congress in October when the Plovdiv Mayor Slavcho Atanasov was beaten for the leadership post by the incumbent Krasimir Karakachanov.

Slavcho Atanasov is believed to become the new leader of the VMRO-NIE party.