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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

makedonin 02-26-2010 03:44 AM

About the geographical identifier, I don't think that anyone of our nagotiators are smart enough to think in such terms.

Volk 03-04-2010 10:26 PM

Name found?
 
As there is now talk of greeks pressuring to change our identity, including language one begs to ask, for the 'negotiations' to reach this point, a name must have been agreed upon by the Macedonian Government?

[URL="http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=120616"]http://a1.com.mk/vesti/default.aspx?VestID=120616[/URL]

Why has the discussion moved from name to identity and language? In my opinion any name change effects identity however following a logical though process the name must be agreed to. Now the greeks are pushing even further...

any thoughts appreciated

sf. 03-04-2010 11:15 PM

I've said it before. The Greeks do not want RoM to enter the EU, they don't won't it to exist, let alone prosper. All the talk of alternative names is meaningless in this context. Short of Macedonia dissapearing as an independent nation, they would be happy for any 'negotiations' to go on in perpetuity.

We dont know what the Macedonian side had proposed, nor how serious they were in their proposals.

Pelister 03-07-2010 01:19 AM

The Macedonian government are traitors who have already betrayed all of us.

We should not be negotiating our identity with an enemy that wants us exterminated.

Phoenix 03-07-2010 02:06 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;41426]The Macedonian government are traitors who have already betrayed all of us.

We should not be negotiating our identity with an enemy that wants us exterminated.[/QUOTE]

I agree that we shouldn't be negotiating but I'm not sure if any Macedonian Government is ready to change our name...I can't see how one man or a group of men are prepared to do that and to go in history as committing such an act of outright treachery.

Sure, we've had the comments and statements of the political opportunists alluding to such things but I feel more often than not that such statements are purely of a political nature from opposition groups to put pressure on the Government of the day and I'm not convinced that if those same people were in power that they would persue a name change...

Unfortunately we find ourselves in a never ending cycle of futile talks, the process itself is disturbingly flawed and offers Macedonia very little comfort or avenue for success...somehow the Macedonian side has to find the political will to remove itself from this idiotic process.

Jankovska 03-07-2010 05:50 AM

[QUOTE=Pelister;41426]The Macedonian government are traitors who have already betrayed all of us.

We should not be negotiating our identity with an enemy that wants us exterminated.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%. Worst the present gov got the identity and everything else into the dispute. Grujo and Ivanov day after day our identity will stay blah blah. Who was talking about our identity? They started it. Our gov is a joke at the moment and it's our duity to do something about them. They gain points by building spomenici and igralista, not by looking after the country and the people. They are fake and they must not be given years and years da ne dokrajcat. Denot se poznava po utroto, we saw ours.

fyrOM 03-07-2010 08:06 AM

Volk the Greeks have been saying their so called red line for quite sometime. As you may be aware it includes language passports drivers licence birth certificate marriage certificates ect. Everything except the name scrawled on your jocks. This is a demand to completely force their idea you are not the original Macedonians but the new comers who due to the land being called Macedonia want to adopt this name. their so called concession is to use the name Macedonia with a qualifier such as north new ect.

There never was a concession to the identity. It may not have been spoken of too loudly but this would only serve to act in stealth and then just so there are no misunderstandings they came out with their red line statement. after 18 years to come out with a statement indicates either I total got you or desperation much like the massive name change from province of northern Greece to Macedonia in 1988. The Serbs no doubt would have called their Greek bum chums to say they cannot hold the country together anymore and Macedonia will lay claim to the name so get in first.

Have the completely got us. The world economic crisis has left many countries shaken. Macedonia supposedly has an unemployment rate of 30 percent. Siege mentality is an old practice from the days of barbarism but then who thinks the Greeks have evolved beyond that. They know that regardless if we are right or not starving us for long enough while displaying wealth just over the fence in Europe may force capitulation.

Why now after 18 years. One might say time to establish their economic interest in macaronis of which we know there are many. There is one thing which started about the time of their red line. Gruevski commission archaeological digs. The Greeks know they are lying but like a crim who has covered his tracks sometimes a piece of evidence comes up that doesnít fit their version of events and can bring their whole lie down. This is the Greeks dilemma. Will their siege work first or will we find something totally damming buried in Macedonia. No one is looking for anything in Bulgaria or Albania and they know the similar position these two countries hold against Macedonia. So anything found in about 80 percent of Macedonia will be hidden away if not destroyed. But even 20 percent means there is a chance to bring their whole lie down. Not exactly a desirable position. Why didnít Macedonia begin to dig earlier. At first economics would dictate other priorities but later other things came up to take up Macedoniaís attention such as the embargo and the 2001 conflict. Were other factors in play. Who knows a syndic might say yes. The problem is we now have a president and prime minister who are smarter than the average bear have a genuine inner commitment to this issue rather then how can they tread water until their presidency is up. They also have a relatively stable economy and the finances to do the digs with. This represents a dangerous person to the Greeks and not being allowed to invade us economic destabilisation is their tool while using the benefit of the law such as in the Macedonian wine issue. Lets all hope some Macedonia decided to scrawl I waz ear on something in Macedonian even if he used Greek letters.

I of Macedon 03-07-2010 09:26 AM

[B]President Ivanov: Macedonia's red line in accord with UN resolutions [/B]

[B]Macedonia's red line is in accord with the United Nations' resolutions, which clearly say that differences over the name should be one and only subject of discussion, and mention neither the identity nor the language, President Gjorge Ivanov told reporters on Thursday in Debar.[/B]

- Macedonia is ready for a solution to the name issue. We must find a solution to the dispute, which has been present since Macedonia's accession to the UN, and come to some closure. This is what we have been looking for, Ivanov said.

He denied to comment media reports quoting Greek sources, which say that the identity issue will be excluded from ongoing name talks under the mediation of UN Envoy Matthew Nimetz.

- I expect for our representative in the negotiations, Ambassador Zoran Jolevski, to inform me on Nimetz's talks in Athens. I know that during his visit to Macedonia, Nimetz witnessed our readiness for settlement, as we need it, considering the fact that we are the ones to be blocked. [B]However, the issues you have been mentioning are not stipulated in the UN resolutions and the Interim Accord, which was also pointed out by Nimetz, Ivanov said.
[/B]
[B]Many issues are confidential and at the right moment the public will be informed about all aspects of the problem with Greece over Macedonia's constitutional name, Ivanov said.[/B]


[url]http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/12850/45/[/url]


I would like to find out what in fact those "many" issues are :scared: and when would be the "right time."

And I'm getting tired of hearing Macedonia is "ready" (honestly what does "ready" really mean) for this and ready for that, yes it's good to hear that Macedonia is "ready", but all that I see happening is that Macedonia is simply sitting in a parked car with the engine running (barely), but to actually get somewhere one needs to step on the accelerator, yet even so, Macedonia must first find it. :whistling: How much longer can Macedonia keep the car parked with the engine running until the fuel runs out?

fyrOM 03-07-2010 11:13 AM

I have also read this before and agree it doesnít sound good especially if coupled with the statements of the Greek whoís a German mep. I couldnít find the thread to quote it here. But he also said it would be right for gruevski to inform his people at a time of his choosing. It doesnít sound good.

I donít know what it means but it looks like the pressure is coming from all sides. If I had to guess could they be talking about a north south Macedonia like north south Korea. It doesnít make sense. How does that affect the identity. In Koreas case both sides are Koreans. I donít consider the Greeks or whatever they are from turkey who settled there as Macedonians. Are they saying anybody living on Macedonian soil can call themselves Macedonian. They should be telling the public whatís going on. Is this going to be like Sudan where there are Arab Sudanese and African Sudanese yet they all call themselves Sudanese.

Risto the Great 03-07-2010 03:58 PM

Ahhh the "constitutional name" again.
Many of us were Macedonian before the constitution was created.


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