I should have been more explicit... the turnout in terms of who hopped on a bus isn't a measure of sentiment, but rather a reflection of the disinterest, apathy, laziness and general "its all been pre determined, out of our control" nature of the Macedonians in Macedonia.

That's why I don't think there will be enough of a turnout.

Those who are for, are for, and a portion of them will get out and vote for.

Those who are against, are against, and will mostly boycott.

The majority however, are probably against the name change, but for EU/NATO and are probably on the fence in terms of how they'd vote, but the disinterest, apathy, laziness and general view of it all being pretermined will weigh into them largely not getting out to vote.

That's my theory anyway.

[QUOTE=Rogi;176427]The majority however, are probably against the name change, but for EU/NATO and are probably on the fence in terms of how they'd vote, but the disinterest, apathy, laziness and general view of it all being pretermined will weigh into them largely not getting out to vote.[/QUOTE]
I concur.
.

[QUOTE=Gocka;176413]I don't find it strange because this is common practice and there is nothing covert or even dishonest about it. Coercion requires an unwillingness on the part of the other party. Who is being coerced? The certainly not the Zaev government, who wants this succeed just as much as the Americans do. The Macedonian people aren't being coerced either, at least not by the Americans, but frankly not even by their own government. By all accounts it seems a majority of the country is for the name change. So if anything the Americans can say they are on the side of democracy no?

I know its hard for us to fathom that even a single Macedonian could willingly be for this, but the reality is that a probably majority are for this. Zaev and his supporters aren't being coerced, they really believe in this bullshit. So to look at any outside party and claim they had a significant hand in this, is not honest.

What is so bewildering about the USA wanting Macedonia to be part of NATO, the Macedonian government wanting to be part of NATO, a probable majority of the Macedonian people wanting to be part of NATO and then the American government helping in the PR campaign to make it a reality?

Can we really blame the Americans for looking after their interests? Isn't the blame on the group of people who decided that this was a good idea? I've yet to see a Macedonian with a gun to their head over this.

If Macedonia were a wealthier and more powerful country, wouldn't we want Macedonia to lobby on behalf of Macedonian minorities in neighboring countries? Would we be upset if Macedonia "meddled" in Greek or Bulgarian elections or politics to the benefit of Macedonians? Doesn't Bulgaria directly fund and support pro Bulgarian elements within Macedonia? Isn't Russia hoping to derail the referendum on behalf of her own interests of splitting NATO apart? Russia's interests might align with ours on this matter, but isn't what they are doing meddling just the same? The fact that we are weak and useless and incapable of an influence doesn't mean we wouldn't if we could.

The simple fact remains that all of those things are background noise, and exist in every country in the world. In the end if the will of the people is set on something, there is nothing outside parties can do. To be honest nothing dramatic is going on, neither from the Russians or the Americans, that goes to show how much either party really gives a shit.

It hurts to admit, but we are acting like the fake made up ethnic group that our enemies have always claimed we are. I can put you in contact with leaders of Bojkaitram, UMD, Mladi za Makednonija, and you can make your own judgment about how much impact the Americans are having and how much of it is the willingness of actual Macedonians to go through with this and the ineptitude of the rest to do anything about it.[/QUOTE]

Gocka, are you by any chance one of those Americans that gathers in Times Square to thump your chest whilst chanting USA, USA, USA - each time a cruise missile strikes Damascus, Baghdad or some shithole in the Horn of Africa...after all, you don't blame America for looking after her interests.

More to the point, I think your view is clouded and severely conflicted...for example, you can't promote LOMA and the interests of Macedonia and be a patriotic American at the same time, they are two largely mutually exclusive pursuits...you need to be more honest with yourself..you can only be one and not both.

Macedonia Court Rejects Motion to Scrap 'Name' Referendum
 

[url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-court-rejects-motion-against-name-referendum-09-19-2018[/url]

[B]Macedonia Court Rejects Motion to Scrap 'Name' Referendum[/B]

Macedonia’s Constitutional Court on Wednesday rejected an initiative to call off the September 30 referendum filed by various opponents of the Greece-Macedonia agreement.

Macedonia's Constitutional Court voted by seven to two on Wednesday against an initiative that called for a assessment of the constitutionality and legality of parliament’s decision on July 30 to call for a referendum on the Greek-Macedonian "name" deal.

Government spokesperson Mile Bosnjakovski said on Wednesday, after the court's decision was published, that Zoran Zaev's government would not comment on the ruling.

The initiative filed by three separate subjects would have derailed the key referendum, which is likely to determine Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic future, just ten days before the vote.

Had it succeeded, it would have caused political turmoil, with potentially dire international implications. Both Zaev's government and its Western allies stand firmly behind the "name" agreement and the associated referendum.

Under the deal signed with Greece this summer, Macedonia agreed to change its name to the Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its long-standing veto on Macedonia's NATO and EU integration.

But for the deal to take effect, Macedonian citizens must affirm the referendum question, which reads: “Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the deal between Macedonia and Greece?”

The initiative against the referendum came before the court as a result of three separate motions filed by the far-left non-parliamentary “Levica” party, the Pan-Macedonian Association World Macedonian Congress and a private citizen from the town of Kumanovo.

The first two groups have strongly condemned the Greek deal as harmful to Macedonian national interests and say the vote should be boycotted.

As a result of the motions, Constitutional Court Judge Elena Gosheva, who acted as the court’s rapporteur in this case, proposed issuing a temporary measure to suspend the referendum. The majority of her colleagues disagreed, however.

Among other things, the motions argued that Macedonia's Foreign Minister, Nikola Dimitrov, had no legal right to sign the “name” agreement, and insisted that only President Gjorge Ivanov – who is also against the deal – could have done so.

The now rejected motions also disputed the parliament’s decision to call for the referendum, and disputed the referendum question itself.

According to them, the question was unclear and manipulative because it does not treat the country’s Euro-Atlantic accession process and the “name” deal as two separate things.

And there goes that avenue.

To summarize:

The courts will let this go through
The main opposition party is quietly supporting this
The one and only response is lets stay home and wait it out.

[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;176430][url]http://www.balkaninsight.com/en/article/macedonia-court-rejects-motion-against-name-referendum-09-19-2018[/url]

[B]Macedonia Court Rejects Motion to Scrap 'Name' Referendum[/B]

Macedonia’s Constitutional Court on Wednesday rejected an initiative to call off the September 30 referendum filed by various opponents of the Greece-Macedonia agreement.

Macedonia's Constitutional Court voted by seven to two on Wednesday against an initiative that called for a assessment of the constitutionality and legality of parliament’s decision on July 30 to call for a referendum on the Greek-Macedonian "name" deal.

Government spokesperson Mile Bosnjakovski said on Wednesday, after the court's decision was published, that Zoran Zaev's government would not comment on the ruling.

The initiative filed by three separate subjects would have derailed the key referendum, which is likely to determine Macedonia’s Euro-Atlantic future, just ten days before the vote.

Had it succeeded, it would have caused political turmoil, with potentially dire international implications. Both Zaev's government and its Western allies stand firmly behind the "name" agreement and the associated referendum.

Under the deal signed with Greece this summer, Macedonia agreed to change its name to the Republic of North Macedonia, while Greece agreed to lift its long-standing veto on Macedonia's NATO and EU integration.

But for the deal to take effect, Macedonian citizens must affirm the referendum question, which reads: “Do you support EU and NATO membership by accepting the deal between Macedonia and Greece?”

The initiative against the referendum came before the court as a result of three separate motions filed by the far-left non-parliamentary “Levica” party, the Pan-Macedonian Association World Macedonian Congress and a private citizen from the town of Kumanovo.

The first two groups have strongly condemned the Greek deal as harmful to Macedonian national interests and say the vote should be boycotted.

As a result of the motions, Constitutional Court Judge Elena Gosheva, who acted as the court’s rapporteur in this case, proposed issuing a temporary measure to suspend the referendum. The majority of her colleagues disagreed, however.

Among other things, the motions argued that Macedonia's Foreign Minister, Nikola Dimitrov, had no legal right to sign the “name” agreement, and insisted that only President Gjorge Ivanov – who is also against the deal – could have done so.

The now rejected motions also disputed the parliament’s decision to call for the referendum, and disputed the referendum question itself.

According to them, the question was unclear and manipulative because it does not treat the country’s Euro-Atlantic accession process and the “name” deal as two separate things.[/QUOTE]

That is so weak, and insulting, why? I fucking put in time and effort to explain myself thoroughly and thoughtfully and you respond with a turd. Are you one of those people who wears tin foil hats and has an opposing view and every single event and fact in the world?

You can't blame any country for looking after their own interests, in the context of political maneuvers. You are focused like a fly on shit about something that is totally meaningless. You keeping whining about the USA any chance you can get, what is the point. So what if the USA supports Macedonian accession into NATO, that doesn't change anything in terms of what Macedonians in Macedonia need to do, so what is the point of bitching about it 24/7? You can't control what others do, all you can control is how much it impacts you. They can send the fucking pope to Macedonia to try and move this along, what difference does it fucking make if you don't listen to them? Why would I not expect the USA to advocate for this? Why would I not expect Russia to try and derail this.

[QUOTE=Phoenix;176429]Gocka, are you by any chance one of those Americans that gathers in Times Square to thump your chest whilst chanting USA, USA, USA - each time a cruise missile strikes Damascus, Baghdad or some shithole in the Horn of Africa...after all, you don't blame America for looking after her interests.[/quote]

Again TURD. How am I conflicted for saying that I am not surprised nor upset by the USA doing exactly what you would expect them to do. I never said it was in line with what I want fro Macedonia, but again it is something you can not control and a total waste of time to focus on. Who said I'm a patriotic American? By stating the obvious? You also can't live in in alternate reality and pretend you are sincere about doing anything in the real world. Maybe you should also look at yourself and ask what your contribution to the matter is, since you are not conflicted like I am.

[quote]More to the point, I think your view is clouded and severely conflicted...for example, you can't promote LOMA and the interests of Macedonia and be a patriotic American at the same time, they are two largely mutually exclusive pursuits...you need to be more honest with yourself..you can only be one and not both.[/QUOTE]

The treatment by these Sekerinska led socialists/globalist treacherous turds, against a concerned anti-referendum, old man...... is unsettling. Sorry i can only supply a Twitter link from LOMA.

They threaten him, mock and laugh at him, they snatch his question list, cut of the sound of his microphone....

The threat of violence, suppressing free speech, intimidation are just some forms of fascism leftists have in their arsenal these days. Not sure if it was Ronald Reagan that actually said this, but.... "If Fascism ever comes back, it will come in the name of Liberalism"

[url]https://twitter.com/patkarka/status/1042487938679009286[/url]

You shouldn't post our stuff from LOMA. We are clearly conflicted and anti Macedonian.

[QUOTE=Bill77;176433]The treatment by these Sekerinska led socialists/globalist treacherous turds, against a concerned anti-referendum, old man...... is unsettling. Sorry i can only supply a Twitter link from LOMA.

They threaten him, mock and laugh at him, they snatch his question list, cut of the sound of his microphone....

The threat of violence, suppressing free speech, intimidation are just some forms of fascism leftists have in their arsenal these days. Not sure if it was Ronald Reagan that actually said this, but.... "If Fascism ever comes back, it will come in the name of Liberalism"

[url]https://twitter.com/patkarka/status/1042487938679009286[/url][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Gocka;176434]You shouldn't post our stuff from LOMA. We are clearly conflicted and anti Macedonian.[/QUOTE]

Just for once, I’d like to see you concede that the US has played Macedonia on many occasions in the last 3 decades...that’s all.

[QUOTE=Gocka;176434]You shouldn't post our stuff from LOMA. We are clearly conflicted and anti Macedonian.[/QUOTE]I don't think Phoenix is suggesting this and i understand your reply is sarcasm..... but anyway :whistling: