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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Risto the Great 05-30-2018 09:58 PM

[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;173575]It will undoubtedly become a shit fight for us, particularly against government bodies, and likely further divide or potentially even destroy our communities. [/QUOTE]
With government bodies, yes. Within communities, I actually don't think so. Perhaps I am feeling optimistic today but I strongly believe anyone with the slightest intelligence (outside of Macedonia) can see how disgusting and demeaning this name change is and will strongly assert themselves as Macedonians and nothing else. Even the ones who have embraced the ventilator and a church that wants to become a Bulgarian puppet when it doesn't want to be a Serbian puppet will know this treachery is on a whole new level.

Tomche Makedonche 05-30-2018 10:08 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;173576]With government bodies, yes. Within communities, I actually don't think so. Perhaps I am feeling optimistic today but I strongly believe anyone with the slightest intelligence (outside of Macedonia) can see how disgusting and demeaning this name change is and will strongly assert themselves as Macedonians and nothing else. Even the ones who have embraced the ventilator and a church that wants to become a Bulgarian puppet when it doesn't want to be a Serbian puppet will know this treachery is on a whole new level.[/QUOTE]

It will happen, the new Republic will make sure of it.

Vangelovski 05-30-2018 10:35 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;173576]With government bodies, yes. Within communities, I actually don't think so. Perhaps I am feeling optimistic today but I strongly believe anyone with the slightest intelligence (outside of Macedonia) can see how disgusting and demeaning this name change is and will strongly assert themselves as Macedonians and nothing else. Even the ones who have embraced the ventilator and a church that wants to become a Bulgarian puppet when it doesn't want to be a Serbian puppet will know this treachery is on a whole new level.[/QUOTE]

I think there's too many within our community who have made all the little compromises that have paved the way for this one. Logically, its a very small leap from what has already been accepted (interim accord, 1995 constitutional changes, flag, framework agreement, 2001 constitutional changes, bilingualism, church name change - MOC-OA, Bulgarian agreements, joint history projects).

They will be embraced by the diplomatic corps and the usual cheerleaders. They'll be made to feel important and buy into the whole "historic opportunity". They'll get invited to "special events", have their photo's taken with "VIPs" and have their arses patted. Some of them may even be given a lapel pin and a cheaply made A4 laminated award. And they'll still know who they are - they'll chuckle to themselves before going to sleep at night.

vicsinad 05-31-2018 04:44 AM

[URL="http://meta.mk/en/on-a-referendum-61-5-of-citizens-would-vote-against-ilidenska-macedonia/"]http://meta.mk/en/on-a-referendum-61-5-of-citizens-would-vote-against-ilidenska-macedonia/[/URL]

The majority of citizens – 61.5% – would vote “no” on a referendum on the name “Republic of Ilindenska Macedonia”, showed a poll conducted by M-prospect in cooperation with MCIC

The majority of ethnic Macedonians, ie 70.5%, would vote with a “no”. The vast majority of VMRO-DPMNE sympathizers would also not support this proposal, ie with a “no” vote they make up 92.7% of the vote. Ethnic Albanians in 52.8% of cases answered that the Republic of Ilindenska Macedonia is an acceptable solution for them. For supporters of SDSM this proposal is acceptable in 56.4% of cases, while for DUI supporters, 62.5%.

Pelagonija 05-31-2018 05:28 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;173574]Really, all there is to say to Macedonians over there is cestito ime.

What this means for Macedonians in the diaspora is still unclear. It is likely that the final battles will return here. In Australia I suspect the Greek community will try to rename us - same as they attempted to back in the 90s. We managed to defeat that through the courts, many thanks to the AMHRC (Australian Macedonian Human Rights Committee vs. State of Victoria, (HREOC, 8 September 2000)). Its difficult to say how that will play out this time around.

Then there is the inevitable divide within our diaspora communities. Those that will accept the new order (because, quite frankly, they're a bunch of vrti kapi) and those that will remain Macedonians. I foresee potential conflict played out, which very well could lead to property disputes over community and sporting clubs, associations, assets etc. This could have very profound and expensive ramifications for us here.

Though, I hope that I'm wrong.[/QUOTE]

Iím not sure how relevant this dispute will be here if FYROM changes its name. Personally speaking I donít see the point to continue the battle here when the real battle has been lost where it counts most. Itís imperative that we keep our nation back home in order to survive as a distinct culture, this is where all tangible efforts should be focused on.

If you look at the those cunt Americans, the biggest ethnic group by heritage is German. That didnít stop them destroying Germany in WWI/II for the sake of economics.

Vangelovski 05-31-2018 06:47 AM

[QUOTE=Pelagonija;173613]Iím not sure how relevant this dispute will be here if FYROM changes its name. Personally speaking I donít see the point to continue the battle here when the real battle has been lost where it counts most. Itís imperative that we keep our nation back home in order to survive as a distinct culture, this is where all tangible efforts should be focused on.

If you look at the those cunt Americans, the biggest ethnic group by heritage is German. That didnít stop them destroying Germany in WWI/II for the sake of economics.[/QUOTE]

Just because they jump off the cliff it does not mean that we should too. I would not accept my government trying to force a new identity on me.

Phoenix 05-31-2018 07:10 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;173624]Just because they jump off the cliff it does not mean that we should too. I would not accept my government trying to force a new identity on me.[/QUOTE]

Where do you think we would stand as a diaspora...surely we have our universal rights to self determination, regardless of the future nomenclature of Zaev's La La Land...

Fuck that, I won't be writing Northern, Gorna, Illidenska, Krushevska or any other prefix or suffix, to any question regarding place of birth, language or identity...

Vangelovski 05-31-2018 09:26 AM

[QUOTE=Phoenix;173626]Where do you think we would stand as a diaspora...surely we have our universal rights to self determination, regardless of the future nomenclature of Zaev's La La Land...

Fuck that, I won't be writing Northern, Gorna, Illidenska, Krushevska or any other prefix or suffix, to any question regarding place of birth, language or identity...[/QUOTE]We do have rights but can we enforce them is the question. The other problem is that Australia has already started down a path of ignoring and redefining internationally codified human rights, not to mention uncodified principles of natural law. In some cases it has never even legislated human rights instruments that it has signed up to and its a real question whether our courts are obligated to protect them. There have been many instances in which they do not and its a complete travesty of justice. Finally, it costs a lot of money to prosecute these cases.

In other cases there will be nothing we can do about it because it hinges on the republic. For example, I'm a certified NAATI translator from Macedonian into English. If Macedonia were to change the name of the language there would be a concurrent change in my certification. I would then have to make the choice of being a gornomakedonski to English translator or giving it up. Even if we were able to stop NAATI from doing that, it would be completely impractical because there would be no market for Macedonian translation work. Government documents from gornamakedonija would require translation from gornomakedonski and not Macedonian. And the bulk of translation work is in personal documents like birth certificates, passports etc.

I think we would end up with mixed results at best. I think we could save our identity but the name of the language would be in question - I think that hinges much more on the idiotism over there. Then theres the inescapable link to the name of the country. What to do with that? We already have it with fyrom. You can write Macedonia in a census form but you will be counted under gornamakedonia in the final tally.

But again, willingly jumping over the cliff is not an option.

Phoenix 05-31-2018 09:40 AM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;173629]We do have rights but can we enforce them is the question. The other problem is that Australia has already started down a path of ignoring and redefining internationally codified human rights, not to mention uncodified principles of natural law. In some cases it has never even legislated human rights instruments that it has signed up to and its a real question whether our courts are obligated to protect them. There have been many instances in which they do not and its a complete travesty of justice. Finally, it costs a lot of money to prosecute these cases.

In other cases there will be nothing we can do about it because it hinges on the republic. For example, I'm a certified NAATI translator from Macedonian into English. If Macedonia were to change the name of the language there would be a concurrent change in my certification. I would then have to make the choice of being a gornomakedonski to English translator or giving it up. Even if we were able to stop NAATI from doing that, it would be completely impractical because there would be no market for Macedonian translation work. Government documents from gornamakedonija would require translation from gornomakedonski and not Macedonian. And the bulk of translation work is in personal documents like birth certificates, passports etc.

I think we would end up with mixed results at best. I think we could save our identity but the name of the language would be in question - I think that hinges much more on the idiotism over there. Then theres the inescapable link to the name of the country. What to do with that? We already have it with fyrom. You can write Macedonia in a census form but you will be counted under gornamakedonia in the final tally.

But again, willingly jumping over the cliff is not an option.[/QUOTE]

As mentioned by you and others previously, it's going to be one hell of a shit fight moving forward from this nightmare that Zaev has put in motion...It's ridiculous enough that he insists on changing the name of the country but it's an entirely new animal to change language and identity as well if he goes the whole hog to appease the greeks...

Risto the Great 05-31-2018 04:52 PM

It should just be called EU Transit Lounge. Doesn't deserve to be a country if the citizens don't care.


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