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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

Tomche Makedonche 01-18-2018 08:13 PM

[QUOTE=Gocka;171438]I second the Slav vs Indigenous Macedonian theory.

It has happened on a sub conscious level. Post WW2 euphoria, good old communist education, and Yugo fever basically made a few generations of Macedonians believe that they are Slavs. Now since the average Macedonian knows as much history as a door knob, they never really contemplated what that meant for their nation, their identity, language, religion, etc.

Fast forward and as you say the evolution the mutation of that virus is evident in the Macedonian left. When combined with there globalist, pro European feelings, the idea of being Slavs just helps cement their ideology that nations in Europe are an old concept, and that one day there will be no nations, just Europeans. The whole dispute with Greece is inconvenient to their greater agenda, and since they don't believe in nationalism anyway, if being a Slav gets them into the EU then so be it, its all just in the past anyway right?

If you spend time in Macedonia, you will find that everything, and I mean everything, is tied to the two main political parties. European Slavs are essentially SDSM, Indigenous Macedonians are DPMNE. The problem is that since everything is about politics, the citizens that fall into one political affiliation or the other, don't actually perceive the situation as a choice between Slav or Macedonian, they are solely focused on the political ramifications. Their ignorance, is guiding this manifestation, rather than a conscious choice. If you framed the question right, the vast majority of Macedonians would tell you that they have always been from the region, but veer your question a little left or right, and you will hear totally contradictory assertions.

No matter what issue we talk about, everything comes back full circle that Macedonians are piss poor, morals and principles. Nothing is off limits, nothing is absolute, anything can be justified based on the situation and the question at hand. Although most pretend that they "dont care" about politics, push the right button and see how quickly you get called a DPMNE or SDSM supporter.

People in FYROM, have no baseline to form their opinions from. Even when DPMNE supporters end up on the correct side of an ideological argument, they aren't aware of it, they stumble into it, and can easily stumble out of it. This is useless to our cause. If the only reason you hold a stance is to be in opposition to someone else's stance, then you theoretically support anything.

So if DPMNE supporters technically consider themselves indigenous Macedonians for now, what use is that when DPMNE is back in power and negotiating a name change with Greece, or appeasing Albanian demands?

The only true indigenous Macedonians are few and far between, and mostly in the diaspora.[/QUOTE]

I think itís incorrect to simply equate this phenomenon in a sense of political ideology. There are nationalists and globalists on both sides of the fence, and there are many self-identified Slavs supporting DPNE who view mother Russia as their saviours and brothers. Itís not a Communist vs Capitalist thing; itís not a progressive vs conservative thing; itís not a left vs right thing; and itís not a globalist vs nationalist thing. This phenomenon appears to transcend politics, which is what is making me start to question whether it has become more than just ideology. As I said before, I donít know the answer, or even if its possible for such phenomenonís to evolve into something more, but at least for me, the question remains nonetheless.

Tomche Makedonche 01-18-2018 08:16 PM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;171444]There were "mini-Serbs" in the former Yugoslavian Macedonia because it was economically favourable to be so. Now there are fyromian macebanians because it is favourable to be deemed progressive in this sense. The environment creates opportunities to be seized upon.

The mini serbs and the macbanians and the fyromians are all Macedonians when you talk to them. There is no doubt about this. But they are just SHIT Macedonians.

If we agree with the 2 ethnicities within Macedonia, then we are also agreeing with Egejci etc. being different and we are falling right into the hands of our oppressors since ancient Roman days and the first lot of artificial borders. These are just SHIT MACEDONIANS, no need to overthink it.[/QUOTE]

Not necessarily, we know that there are indigenous Macedonians in the occupied areas as they identify as such, many have accepted a Greek/Bulgarian nationality, which is based on the reality of their current residency (no different to the Diaspora accepting Australian, Canadian, American, etc nationality), some have gone beyond that.

I agree that this phenomenon is essentially ideologically based (as stated so in my opening paragraph), but is there a point where it evolves beyond that?

Yugoslavia doesn’t exist anymore, so who exactly are these self-identified “Slavs” of RoMacedonia “turning their hats” for?, they aren’t self-identifying as Serb’s, Bulgarians, Russians, or even Europeans, and what’s worse is that they don’t appear to believe in a Macedonian ethnicity. We may now correctly interpret that as just SHIT Macedonians, but at some point in the future reality may force us to re-evaluate that interpretation whether we like it or not.

As I stated in my response to Gocka , I don’t know the answer, or even if it’s possible for such phenomenon’s to evolve into something more, but at least for me the question remains nonetheless (whether its politically correct to or not)

Carlin 01-18-2018 08:40 PM

Eп. 1 Историска позадина на противењето на Грција кон името Македонија, македонската нација и јазик - youtube:

[B][url]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UlZK2Lif8M[/url][/B]

Risto the Great 01-18-2018 08:41 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;171448]I think the term was vrtikapi?[/QUOTE]In a similar way ... I recall my baba saying "so dve g'zoi" when telling me about how the father of a vocal (local) Macedonian was found dead with his genitals cut off and in his mouth for being a Grkoman back in the selo. The good ole days.

Gocka 01-18-2018 08:43 PM

You are over thinking it mate. Macedonians don't have ideologies. Nothing in Macedonia transcends politics.

[QUOTE=Tomche Makedonche;171454]I think itís incorrect to simply equate this phenomenon in a sense of political ideology. There are nationalists and globalists on both sides of the fence, and there are many self-identified Slavs supporting DPNE who view mother Russia as their saviours and brothers. Itís not a Communist vs Capitalist thing; itís not a progressive vs conservative thing; itís not a left vs right thing; and itís not a globalist vs nationalist thing. This phenomenon appears to transcend politics, which is what is making me start to question whether it has become more than just ideology. As I said before, I donít know the answer, or even if its possible for such phenomenonís to evolve into something more, but at least for me, the question remains nonetheless.[/QUOTE]

Tomche Makedonche 01-18-2018 08:58 PM

[url]http://www.ekathimerini.com/225025/article/ekathimerini/news/fyrom-media-reports-un-mediators-name-proposals[/url]

According to the Greeks (who are apparently quoting the republic's media), these were the proposals:

1. Republika Nova Makedonija (Republic of New Macedonia)
2. Republika Severna Makedonija (Republic of Northern Macedonia)
3. Republika Gorna Makedonija (Republic of Upper Macedonia)
4. Republika Vardarska Makedonija (Republic of Vardar Macedonia)
5. Republika Makedonija (Skopje) (Republic of Macedonia [Skopje])

Pelagonija 01-19-2018 05:40 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;171460]In a similar way ... I recall my baba saying "so dve g'zoi" when telling me about how the father of a vocal (local) Macedonian was found dead with his genitals cut off and in his mouth for being a Grkoman back in the selo. The good ole days.[/QUOTE]

That's interesting, though it says a lot about our people. Back in the good days Greeks were propping up Greek churches and schools in Ottoman Macedonia and presenting these maps to the powers of the time in order to justify their claim to Macedonia, and yet you had Macedonians even then commiting cultural suicide for a buck..

And the audacity of the so called Modern day Greeks referring to Macedonians as Slavophone Greeks. As if somehow they woke up one day and forgot to speak Greek.

Risto the Great 01-19-2018 09:57 PM

Nimetz v.2.0
 
[url]http://neoskosmos.com/news/en/Greece-and-FYROM-called-to-decide-among-five-names[/url]


[QUOTE]Although FYROM Ambassador and name negotiator Vasko Naumovski in New York, has reportedly expressed his disagreement with the options, saying that they are all ďfar from a dignified solution,Ē and that the name, Republic of Macedonia, is the basis for identity, it is understood that this is not the official opinion of the country's government, which is eager to proceed with negotiations. Special Envoy [B]Nimetz himself has not made any reference to the issue of national identity[/B]; he has, however, [B]made provisions for the way citizenship will be stated, opting for the slavic rendition 'Makedonski' in all official passports, with an alternative being 'nationality of the Republika Nova Makedonija'.[/B] [/QUOTE]

Dumb Macebanians will probably accept their nationality as "Makedonski" or "nationality of the Republika Nova Makedonija". Mostly because they can't see beyond their rakija glasses.

Pathetic nation of people!

Niko777 01-21-2018 12:09 PM

[URL="http://www.ekathimerini.com/225103/article/ekathimerini/news/name-talks-stoke-division-in-greece-and-fyrom"]KATHIMERINI:[/URL]
[B]According to well-informed sources, it was clear during Tsipras’s meetings last week with Foreign Minister Nikos Kotzias and Archbishop Ieronymos that Greece is leaning towards Republika Vardarska Makejonija (Republic of Vardarska Macedonia) as a settlement, while [U]FYROM prefers Republika Nova Makedonija[/U] (Republic of New Macedonia ).[/B]

Tomche Makedonche 01-21-2018 07:24 PM

[url]https://www.sbs.com.au/news/greeks-rally-against-use-of-macedonia-in-name-dispute-with-skopje[/url]

[B]Greeks rally against use of 'Macedonia' in name dispute with Skopje[/B]

Hundreds of thousands of Greeks in the northern city of Thessaloniki rallied to protest against the use of the name ďMacedoniaĒ in any solution to a row between Athens and Skopje over the name of the former Yugoslav republic.

Athens argues that the name Macedonia suggests that Skopje has territorial claims to the northern Greek region of the same name, of which Thessaloniki is the capital.

The region was the centre of Alexander the Great's ancient kingdom, a source of Greek pride.

Police said more than 90,000 demonstrators had joined the protest in Thessaloniki, organised by hardline clerics, far-right leaders and Greek diaspora groups.

Protest leaders said at least 400,000 people had turned up.

"We estimate there were at least 400,000 people. It is impressive," rally organiser Anastasios Porgialidis told AFP.

Some minor scuffles erupted between the protesters and anarchists who had organised a counter-demonstration, prompting police to intervene with tear gas.

The rally drew members of the neo-Nazi Golden Dawn party who had gathered around the statue of Alexander the Great along with local clergy.

Representatives from the main opposition party, New Democracy, were also present despite a tacit order from its liberal-minded leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis to boycott the protests.

On Sunday after the rally, however, Mitsotakis hailed the "impressive turnout that proves the particularly great sensitivity of society to the issue".

Cretans in traditional costumes who travelled from the southern island with their horses, as well as people from northern Greece wearing costumes from the Macedonian wars era a century ago, crowded at the White Tower on the Thessaloniki waterfront from early in the morning.

Police said 284 buses had transported people from around Greece to the port city.

[U]'Not negotiable' [/U]

Greece and Macedonia returned to the United Nations last week hoping to reach a compromise that could end the 27-year dispute over the former Yugoslav republic's name.

Greece's objections to the use of the name Macedonia since the Balkan country's independence in 1991 have hampered the tiny nation's bid to join the European Union and NATO.

"We want to warn our politicians not to dare to betray us. Macedonia is Greek and this is not negotiable", said protester Dimitris Triantafillidis, 50, a shop owner from the northern regional district of Pieria.

The UN negotiator Matthew Nimetz -- a 24-year veteran on the issue -- said last week that he was "very hopeful" that a solution was within reach.

Despite the nationalist fervour that is also being fed by Golden Dawn, Greeks appear to be less militant on the issue than in the past.

In 1992, more than one million people -- 10 percent of the population -- joined a rally in Thessaloniki to proclaim that "Macedonia is Greek".

According to a survey conducted for Greek radio station 24/7 by the Alco polling group, 63 percent of respondents said they thought it was in Greece's best interests to seek a mutually acceptable solution at the UN talks.

And the Greek Orthodox Church, which is traditionally opposed to the use of the term Macedonia by Skopje and led the 1992 rally, appears to have distanced itself from Sunday's events.

Its leader Archbishop Ieronymos on Thursday reportedly told Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras that "national unity is needed... (not) protests and shouts".

[U]'National stupidity' [/U]

Tsipras, who is expected to meet with his Macedonian counterpart Zoran Zaev at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland, next week, said in an interview published Sunday: "If there is an opportunity for a solution, it would be a national stupidity not to make good use of it."

However, he told Ethnos newspaper that he could understand "the concerns and sensitivities" of the Greeks of the north.

Macedonia is known as the Former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia (FYROM) at the United Nations, although the Security Council acknowledged this was a provisional name when it agreed to membership.

If a deal is reached at the UN talks, it will be put before Greek parliament for approval, with the government expecting the compromise name to be approved despite opposition within some parties.

According to Macedonian media, Nimetz has proposed five alternatives all containing the name.


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