[QUOTE=Philosopher;154741]Spitfire, the Greek government (and most Greeks) do not believe there is a Macedonian ethnicity or language. They believe Macedonian is the name of a Greek tribe and a dialect of Greek. It is for this reason that the Greek government opposes the use of the name "Macedonia", as it would imply a "Macedonian" ethnos. It is for this reason that the Greek government wants a geographical qualifier in the name Macedonia when used to describe the RoM.

The purpose of this is to deny our Macedonian ethnos. So if Macedonia were to accept a geographical qualifier, we could only identify ourselves as people living in what is part of a region of historic Macedonia. This negates our ethnos.

This is unacceptable to us.[/QUOTE]

Good insight, however by using Macedonia in a geographical sense, doesn't prohibit:

a. The indisputable fact that generations after generations of your people were living in macedonia.
b. The fact that by this you are really macedonian.
c. Anyone raised in the macedonian traditions to be regarded macedonian, after all this is how all modern states were formulated.
d. The reconciliation of Greece with the terminology.

I'm sure there are more.

[quote=Spitfire]a. The indisputable fact that generations after generations of your people were living in macedonia.
b. The fact that by this you are really macedonian.[/quote]

The problem with this approach is that it does not work. First, the only reason this dispute exists in the first place is that the Greek government believes the name “Macedonia” is Greek, that the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians was Greek, and that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. The Greek government does not believe that today's Macedonians are “Macedonians” because they live in Macedonia because the Greek government believes we are ethnic Slavs living in part of historic Macedonia. This does not make us Macedonians. The problem is that we believe we descend, imperfectly, from the ancient Macedonians, and have always identified as Macedonian. The Greek government believes we arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century and have no connection whatsoever to ancient Macedonia.

You cannot divorce ancient history from the modern day name dispute.

[quote]Anyone raised in the macedonian traditions to be regarded macedonian, after all this is how all modern states were formulated.[/quote]

The Greek government believes historic Macedonian traditions are Greek. We are not Greek. The Greek government believes we are Slavs with Slavic traditions.

[quote]The reconciliation of Greece with the terminology.[/quote]

Greece only accepts a geographic qualifier which denies our ethnic identity. Or a “Slavic” qualifier.

[QUOTE=Philosopher;154745]The problem with this approach is that it does not work. First, the only reason this dispute exists in the first place is that the Greek government believes the name “Macedonia” is Greek, that the language spoken by the ancient Macedonians was Greek, and that the ancient Macedonians were Greeks. The Greek government does not believe that today's Macedonians are “Macedonians” because they live in Macedonia because the Greek government believes we are ethnic Slavs living in part of historic Macedonia. This does not make us Macedonians. The problem is that we believe we descend, imperfectly, from the ancient Macedonians, and have always identified as Macedonian. The Greek government believes we arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century and have no connection whatsoever to ancient Macedonia.

You cannot divorce ancient history from the modern day name dispute.

The Greek government believes historic Macedonian traditions are Greek. We are not Greek. The Greek government believes we are Slavs with Slavic traditions.

Greece only accepts a geographic qualifier which denies our ethnic identity. Or a “Slavic” qualifier.[/QUOTE]

All these mean one thing. That the real problem is what Greece thinks. Am I right?

[QUOTE=spitfire;154746]All these mean one thing. That the real problem is what Greece thinks. Am I right?[/QUOTE]

Yes.

A more accurate appraisal, however, is that we have different interpretations of history and we are both very zealous about history.

I understand the Greek position. They view us as ethnic Slavs who arrived in the Balkans in the 6th century--many hundreds of years after Alexander the Great. Ancient Macedonian inscriptions are in Greek; the names of the ancient Macedonians are written in Greek and perhaps in many instances are "pure Greek names". Some ancient historians describe them as Greek and modern historians generally regard them as Greek. And Greeks, as well as many Western historians, believe our Macedonian identity began to take shape in the 19th century.

With this is a background, it is obvious why the Greek government prefers a geographical qualifier instead of Macedonia.

We obviously have a very different interpretation of history Spitfire. Unfortunately, for us, we are not united in this regard, and our positions are not widely known or accepted.

[QUOTE=Philosopher;154749]Yes.
[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the clear answer.

So it does matter and the reason is mainly because Greece stands on the way of important issues for Macedonia. NATO and the EU for instance.
Therefore the "who cares what Greece thinks" or "Greece has no say in this" probably does not apply. And the reason is quite obvious as nobody is alone in this planet.

Time is on your side. Ignore Greece.

[QUOTE=spitfire;154754]Thank you for the clear answer.

So it does matter and the reason is mainly because Greece stands on the way of important issues for Macedonia. NATO and the EU for instance.
Therefore the "who cares what Greece thinks" or "Greece has no say in this" probably does not apply. And the reason is quite obvious as nobody is alone in this planet.[/QUOTE]

No, it does not matter what Greece says or does. We will call ourselves Macedonian and the nation-state the "Republic of Macedonia" regardless of what our neighbor has to say. We could not care less what the Hellenic Republic does or does not.

I am against EU membership and NATO.

Greece's actions are an international embarrassment.

[QUOTE=Philosopher;154761]No, it does not matter what Greece says or does. We will call ourselves Macedonian and the nation-state the "Republic of Macedonia" regardless of what our neighbor has to say. We could not care less what the Hellenic Republic does or does not.

I am against EU membership and NATO.

[/QUOTE]

In this case, would you say that this opinion is expressing the opinion of every macedonian? Membership of EU and NATO included.

[QUOTE=Soldier of Macedon;154736]If the people identify as Thracians in an ethno-national sense, and they are in charge of their own state, they have every right to call it (the Republic of) Thrace. Any other parts of historical Thrace which belong to other modern states can either retain their names as regions within those states or apply a geographical or other qualifier themselves. That is the logical thing to do as the name of a sovereign state shouldn't be held ransom to the name of a mere region within another state. [/QUOTE]
Agreed. And the United Nations agrees and blah blah blah. But let's not forget the Macedonians (and others) who fought for a free [B]Macedonia[/B] during the time of the forging of modern nations. Greeks only ever wanted to make Macedonia Greek. Let us not kid ourselves.

[QUOTE=spitfire;154762]In this case, would you say that this opinion is expressing the opinion of every macedonian? Membership of EU and NATO included.[/QUOTE]

I can only speak for myself, but I would state that no Macedonian cares what the Hellenic Republic does or does not. As for EU and NATO membership, there is a greater degree of differences.