[QUOTE=Ivanov]Macedonia as a cultural homeland of the Macedonian language and Macedonian identity.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Risto the President]Macedonia as a cultural homeland of the [B]Macedonian People[/B], Macedonian language and Macedonian identity.[/QUOTE]

Vote 1 for Risto

Sadly, identifying the Macedonian [I]people [/I]is typically shunned and avoided at all cost in Macedonia.

How can a name change not affect our identity, and our history and our culture? The idea that a name change is possible without it affecting our identity, is a lie. How can these politicians split hairs when it comes to name/identity/history? If anyone bothered to look at the Terms and Conditions that the Greeks, and the E.U have put us to, it is clear what they are negotiating. The Macedonians have been deceived by the Greeks about the legal aspects of this dispute - because its someone elses mistake and problem, and the Macedonian leaders have no idea what their rights are. What ever happened to having our name overturned legally at the U.N? The most sensible and practical alternative to everything going on right now. They are either extremely incompetent, or straight out traitors.

[quote=Bratot;83196]This is the best potential solution that eventually lead to a final victory, having on mind the strict legal advatage of our arguments and the history of related subjects by the Court.[/quote]

Bratot, you did not address the points I raised about your "strategy". Simply claiming it is the "best potential solution" does not make it so, especially when a number of blatantly obvious issues (pointed out above in a) to d)) have not been addressed.

[B]Further, you are still avoiding the real issue, which is whether you support Macedonian sovereignty, and if so, why appeal to unaccountable international courts?[/B]

[quote=Bratot;83196][B]And what is more important you purposely avoided to explain in several occassions how will you employ the sovereingty for the rights of our minorities, our diaspora, being seriously violated in the states of their residence?[/B]

How will you ensure fair census for our minorities in foreign countries?

The international right is made to serve the smaller countries, to protect their implicit sovereign right from the argument of power.[/quote]

You may or may not have noticed, but states such as Greece and Bulgaria generally IGNORE rulings made by international courts. Attempts to have the rights of Macedonian minorities protected through international law have FAILED.

But you seem to be suggesting that their rights can somehow be protected if Macedonia accepts the jurisdiction of an international court to decide on issues that are a matter for the Macedonian people ONLY??

[QUOTE=Bratot;82870]Do you think of ceasing the negotiations as a means, or ceasing of the negotiations as a goal?[/QUOTE]

We have a Metoist in our midst. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, and no understanding of the political damage these negotiations are doing to us. The only people that have anything to gain by making a case that the negotiations are 'necessary' (for whatever vague reason), are you enemies.

[QUOTE=Pelister;83203]How can a name change not affect our identity, and our history and our culture? The idea that a name change is possible without it affecting our identity, is a lie. [/QUOTE] Pelister,

Do you think Ivanov knows this and which is why he has no intention to change it?
Ivanov agrees with you if you read his statement,

[QUOTE] IVANOV
We are fatefully experiencing the old wisdom - [B]nomen est omen - the essence is in the name. Our name reflects an essential part of the Macedonian identity.[/B] Our ancestors were faced with much greater pressure, but they have never succumbed, with great difficulty they have left us what we need to preserve today for the future generations. [/QUOTE]

[quote=Pelister;83207]We have a Metoist in our midst. You obviously have no idea what you are talking about, and no understanding of the political damage these negotiations are doing to us. The only people that have anything to gain by making a case that the negotiations are 'necessary' (for whatever vague reason), are you enemies.[/quote]

Regardless of whether Bratot wants to admit it, you are right Pelister - it is Metoist thinking.

In fact, over the course of the last few days, we have essentially had the same debate that we have had numerous previous times with Buktop and other Metovisti and that is Macedonian sovereignty versus accepting thrid party decisions on matters that are ONLY for the Macedonian people to decide on.

Some good information here, Rogi.

[quote] If the Macedonian Government had waited a few more months, in fact just 2 more months, until November 1995 (just 2 months after the Interim Accord was signed which ended the Greek Embargo with a Macedonian capitulation on the name and the Macedonian flag) until the Dayton Agreement was signed and the sanctions against Serbia dropped, and the Macedonian economy and the denar would see a near immediate re-stabilisation, then those who signed over Macedonia's flag and name, would never have had any way to justify themselves with these stories (read: lies) about the Greek embargo forcing Macedonia's hand. Instead of waiting those 2 months for the circumstances to change in Macedonia's favour and never signing the interim accord, the Government at the time, led by Kiro Gligorov, lied to the Macedonian people and said that the Interim Accord would be gone in 3 months. [/quote]

My thoughts after reading this are that the Macedonians only have themselves to blame. Its been one critical error after another. It is interesting how a number of UMD members on this forum have been trying to make the case in the past that our hands have been tied due to Greek threats, and that the Greek economic embargo was the cause of the capitulations?

[COLOR=#390002][FONT=Verdana]I think we have dealt with Ivanov on another thread quite thoroughly - I forget which one it was, but, in my view, he's an imbecile who is attempting to sell a name change as acceptable, necessary and a victory.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=3][COLOR=#000000] [/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

This is a good thread. Its good to weed out the Terms and Clauses of the Interim Accord, what they mean in plain talk.