[QUOTE=Bratot;83017][B]"Clavus clavo eicitur"[/B] familiar?

There is also a saying in Macedonian: "so lisicata na lisechki nacin"[/QUOTE]

Si pretpostavuvam deka "Golemiot Lisec" - Gligorov mora da ti bil (i se ushte da ti e) potik za tvojot ideoloshki pogled vo vrska so makedonskata megjunarodna vazalska politika! Dali gresham nekade? :)

Can you tell us with a straight face how on the one hand YOU can support the "IA" (as you do currently) and at the same time say you support the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" (and even engage in promoting it)? What ethical principles are being upheld in such an OXYMORON stand? Would it be too far fetched to say that your support for the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" is analogous to that of the wolf in sheep's clothing lurking among the flock of sheep?

СВЕТСКИ МАКЕДОНСКИ КОНГРЕС

[B]СТОП ЗА ДИСКРИМИНАЦИЈАТА ПРОТИВ МАКЕДОНИЈА И МАКЕДОНЦИТЕ![/B]

10 декември 2010 година, Скопје, Македонија (СМК) - Светскиот Македонски Конгрес (СМК) на меѓународниот ден за човекови права го потсетува светот на геноцидот врз македонскиот народ, кој со влијанието на Атина, Брисел и Стразбур во меѓународната заедница добива универзална димензија!

СМК најостро го осудува анитмакедонизмот на Грција, грчкиот геноцид врз македонскиот народ и наци-фашистичкото барање на Атина за промена на државното име Македонија и изразува огорченост од солидарноста на бирократијата во Брисел и Стразбур со тоа.

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"]Промената на државното име Македонија е злосторство против човештвото кое не застарува,[/COLOR] [COLOR="Purple"]а сервилноста на домашните квислинзи кон Атина е велепредавство за кое ќе суди судот на историјата и народот![/COLOR]

[COLOR="Red"][B]Името на македонскиот народ е нераскинливо поврзано со државното име Македонија [/B][/COLOR][COLOR="Purple"][B]и поради тоа не постои заемно прифатливо решение со Атина, освен државното име Македонија![/B][/COLOR]
[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"][COLOR="Red"][B]Правото на самоидентификување и самоопределување е неотуѓиво универзално право на македонскиот народ и затоа СМК апелира на итен и безусловен прекин на разговорите за разликата за државното име Македонија и продолжување на членството во Обединетите Нации и во сите меѓународни организации под единственото име Македонија, [/B][/COLOR]со можност за употреба на уставната референца „Република“, без латинична трнскрипција на македонскиот јазик туку на англиски јазик “The Republic of Macedonia” со меѓшународниот код МК односно МКД, независно од грчката окупација на Егејскиот дел од Македонија и геноцидот врз македонскиот народ кој Атина континуирано го врши од Балканските војни 1912-1913 година до денес.[/SIZE]

[SIZE="4"]Името на државата е идентитетот на нацијата! Истовремено, државното име е нерасикнливо со територијалниот интегритет на државата Македонија и единствено што Македонците во целиот свет ги обединува! Промената на државното име Македонија е вовед во нова војна на Балканот и дестабилизација на регионот! Државното име Македонија е единственото решение за траен мир на Балканот и на се уште отвореното македонско прашање![/SIZE]

СМК смета дека доколку Атина не ја признае Македонија, Грција ризикува да не остане цела! Но, и покрај се, Македонците се за македонско-грчко помирување и Договор за траен мир и добрососедство меѓу Македонија и Грција!
[url]http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=133356236688782&topic=382[/url]

For those that like to dismiss our views as that of disconnected from "reality" Diaspora Macedonians, Todor Petrov lives in Macedonia!

[QUOTE=indigen;83044]Si pretpostavuvam deka "Golemiot Lisec" - Gligorov mora da ti bil (i se ushte da ti e) potik za tvojot ideoloshki pogled vo vrska so makedonskata megjunarodna vazalska politika! Dali gresham nekade? :)

Can you tell us with a straight face how on the one hand YOU can support the "IA" (as you do currently) and at the same time say you support the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" (and even engage in promoting it)? What ethical principles are being upheld in such an OXYMORON stand? Would it be too far fetched to say that your support for the "End The Name Negotiations Campaign" is analogous to that of the wolf in sheep's clothing lurking among the flock of sheep?[/QUOTE]


There was another saying in Macedonian for the likes of you: "Thick as a brick"

But wasn't you saying that declaring the Interim Agrement null and void will cease the negotiations? ( [URL="http://macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=4788&page=16"]post 158[/URL])

Thus all this time you adhered to the view that we must declare the IA null and void in order to cease the negotiation which is plain OXYMORON solution, while parading to be a big supported to end the name negotiations.

Ceasing the IA doesn't stop the negotiations.

Another question, are you able to provide credibile source who can vouch that our [B]withdrawing from the IA is nullifying the consequences that came of it i.e. to change the national insignia, the provisional reference and our minorities?[/B]

[QUOTE=Bratot;83020]My intention is to discuss the topic. I'm not sure about yours.[/QUOTE]
My "story" gave precise details of the "LAW" as it stood in Macedonia over 100 years ago in the Ottoman empire. Those "laws" may look absolutely stupid to us nowadays, but they were indeed the law that the Christian Macedonians followed until some decided they were ridiculous.

We have other "LAWS" today, some have decided they are ridiculous.

[QUOTE="protivpropaganda"]........acknowledge the existence of individuals who work for the interests of others out of profit, ignorance and\or malice.[/QUOTE]
Indigen and those 'who share his views', is that it? I share most of his views. I can assure you that I work for the interests of the Macedonian Cause and not for profit, out of ignorance or malice. So what now?
[QUOTE]I still firmly hold to what I said that my Diaspora isn't a puppet Diaspora and stop acting like a 4 year old pretending you do not know what it means.[/QUOTE]
Who is 'your' Diaspora and how do they differ from mine? Are you not Macedonian, like I am?
[QUOTE]......I did find out why it needed to be clarified.....[/QUOTE]Oh, I see, well then perhaps you could clinically deliver your dribble in future if you don't want to be questioned on your statements.
[QUOTE]Also, while rereading I got the notion that you guys aren't in good terms with a Macedonian Diaspora organisation called UMD and that the "their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora" actually refers to them.[/QUOTE]
What, you mean you didn't know? Now who's behaving like a 4 year old.....
[QUOTE]......this is the first forum that is comprised only of the Diaspora I have visited.[/QUOTE]
Wrong, again. This forum is not comprised "only" of Macedonians from the Diaspora, there are Macedonian from Macedonia here also, in addition to a number of non-Macedonians from various countries.

[QUOTE]I can also add another thing beneficial to my case and that is I am a busy man.....[/QUOTE]
Good to know, the rest of us don't work, aren't busy, don't have personal lives, etc, we just wait here all day to be graced by busy types like yourself so they can tell us 'how it is' in Macedonia.
[QUOTE]In my experience only my friends address me as PP.[/QUOTE]
Your friends address you as PP? How would that sound when said, "pee-pee"? Look, I won't be preventing anybody from referring to you as PP, it means absolutely nothing of insult. Were someone to write "prolivpropaganda" or similar, then let me know, otherwise, take your own advice and stop behaving like a 4 year old.

[quote=Bratot;83043]Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights includes the right to a name or identity as well.[/quote]

Where??? In what universe?

[url]http://untreaty.un.org/unts/120001_144071/6/3/00004456.pdf[/url]

Is it possible to go over each point without taking the topic off-topic?

[QUOTE=protivpropaganda;80402][QUOTE]

Macedonians are being brainwashed to avoid saying MACEDONIA by the political establishment in Ramkovist Macedonia, the state institutions under their control, their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora and those who follow their lead out of ignorance!

Do you agree or disagree?

[quote]
02-13-2010, 02:41 AM #98
UMDiaspora.org

Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Washington, D.C.
Posts: 375

Default
UMD has never defended the term 'FYROM.' UMD does not support the name "the
former Yugoslav Republic of Macedonia" and definitely does not support acronyms.
This is ridiculous. [SIZE=4][COLOR=Red]The name of Macedonia is Republic of Macedonia.[/COLOR][/SIZE]

[URL="http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=37638&postcount=98"][/URL][URL]http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showpost.php?p=37638&postcount=98[/URL][/quote]Advocating entry into EU and NATO under the terms of the "Interim Accord" is
advocating for FYROM and ENDORSEMENT of the TREASONOUS "IA" itself! If you or
anyone else can not comprehend that, then you have an IQ of an OVCA (Sheep) and
are beyond redemption, IMHO! :-)

FYI: Macedonia's rightful name is MACEDONIA and the addition of the
constitutional reference "Republic" is a COMPROMISE OFFER that IS
deceptively presented as being the "real and only" name of the country.

[URL="http://www.voanews.com/macedonian/news/VOA-Macedonian-Kristina-Kramer-Macedonian-language-Macedonia-Greece-105703563.html"][B]Professor Kramer on Macedonia and Macedonians:[/B][/URL]

"....Професорката наведува дека не е политичар, туку лингвист, но сепак, не може да
ја сфати суштината на спорот околу името.

[B][COLOR=Red]„Македонија е Македонија. Македонскиот јазик е македонски јазик. Македонскиот
народ е македонскиот народ.[/COLOR][/B] Не ми е јасно во што е прашањето. Зошто една
држава може да вели дека од ден-денес, оваа држава, овој народ, овој јазик треба
да најде друго име. [B][COLOR=Red]Веќе има име и името е Македонија“[/COLOR][/B], вели Крамер...."

[URL="http://www.voanews.com/macedonian/news/VOA-Macedonian-Kristina-Kramer-Macedonian-language-Macedonia-Greece-105703563.html"]
[/URL][/QUOTE]

It is only befitting of me to have my first post on this forum in the propaganda section.
So, let's get to it.[/quote]
And you made an arsehole of yourself from the word go! Bravo "Profesore"! :)

[QUOTE]
The claims of this thread is that we are getting brainwashed into avoiding the usage of our name by the political establishment in Ramkovist Macedonia, the state institutions under their control, their PUPPET support groups in the Diaspora and those who follow their lead out of ignorance.[/QUOTE]
That is an observable fact that many of us have seen and observed!

[QUOTE]I do not agree with this claim at all.[/QUOTE]
You are either in denial or spreading lies for some interested party that feels a need to cover up this and other anti-Macedonian dirty deeds!

[QUOTE]First belittling one's own country by calling it other then its own name is by itself an Ad Homminem attack.[/QUOTE]
So, in your view, would calling Macedonia by her rightful and historical name - Macedonia mean "an Ad Homminem attack"?

[QUOTE]Second, the institutions of our government or those in power do not subscribe to anything other then our name as is.[/QUOTE]
Just for clarification, can you specify what that is and should be? Certainly Macedonia is not used, or very rarely used!

[QUOTE]And last but not least we do not have a puppet Macedonian Diaspora but individuals who work for the interests of others.[/QUOTE]
As you just admitted, you made an Ad Homminem attack on myself and others like me on your very first post without even COMPREHENDING what you were commenting on! Thus you were not invited here to have any genuine conversation but to attack without any basis a certain ideological Macedonian strand - patriotic Macedonians.

[QUOTE]Although the opposition, the leftist scum, in Macedonia would willingly sell out anything and everything held sacred by Macedonians, this is not the case with the Macedonians in Macedonia. [/QUOTE]
Who said Macedonians in Macedonia are selling anything out? But when you say "the opposition, the leftist scum" do you include ALL members and supporters of those parties? Secondly are you absolving and excluding the VASSAL ruling "rightist" elites from any responsibilities for anti-Macedonian sell out deeds?

[quote=Bratot;83052]Ceasing the IA doesn't stop the negotiations.

Another question, are you able to provide credibile source who can vouch that our [B]withdrawing from the IA is nullifying the consequences that came of it i.e. to change the national insignia, the provisional reference and our minorities?[/B][/quote]

Bratot, get off the rakija. Now you're just being plain STUPID.

[B]Article 5[/B]

1. The Parties agree to continue negotiations under the auspices of the Secretary-General of the United Nations pursuant to Security Council resolution 845 (1993) with a view to reaching agreement on the difference described in that resolution and in Security Council resolution 817 (1993).

2. Recognizing the difference between them with respect to the name of the Party of the Second Part, each Party reserves all of its rights consistent with the specific obligations undertaken in this Interim Accord. The Parties shall cooperate with a view to facilitating their mutual relations notwithstanding their respective positions as to the name of the Party of the Second Part. In this context, the Parties shall take practical measures, including dealing with the matter of documents, to carry out normal trade and commerce between them in a manner consistent with their respective positions in regard to the name of the Party of the Second Part. The Parties shall take practical measures so that the difference about the name of the Party of the Second Part will not obstruct or interfere with normal trade and commerce between the Party of the Second Part and third parties