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-   -   Macedonia & Greece: Name Issue (http://www.macedoniantruth.org/forum/showthread.php?t=1556)

indigen 09-18-2010 08:29 PM

[QUOTE=Buktop;59634]OziMak, brilliant post!!! Loved every word.[/QUOTE]

VASSAL ideological glue reveals two sides of same anti-Macedonian coin!

indigen 09-18-2010 08:53 PM

[QUOTE=Rogi;62120]Now that it has been clearly established that withdrawal from the Interim Accord will cause no damage whatsoever to Macedonia's UN Membership, albeit with the temporary name reference remaining until Macedonia's second move to rectify this.

[B]It is time to put a complete spanner in the works :)

I'm doing this, to play the devil's advocate and purely so that we can get more arguments out into the open - which in turn helps us really analyse all potential outcomes and scenarios.[/B]

The following may be a near impossible scenario, or the most unlikely; if it were not Greece we were talking about.

Could Greece pretend to interpret Macedonia's withdrawal from the Interim Accord, [B]and Macedonia notifying the UN of it's name change to the Republic of Macedonia,[/B] as a provocation so much so that Greece declares war on the Republic of Macedonia - a fake war, done for the purpose of Greece being able to implement a 'War Tax' on its' citizens, in order to raise the billions it needs to save itself from the weight of it's debts? Is that an unrealistic far-fetched scenario, even for an illogical and unreasonable Greece?[/QUOTE]

Do you still hold this position and how does that factor in with support for IMMEDIATE ENDING OF "NAME NEGOTIATIONS"?

Secondly, I don't think that Macedonia has joined (applied to join) the UN under a different name other than its rightful and official one but has only agreed to extra conditions in accepting the TR. It is the IA that places conditions on using only the TR for international organisations that HR is also a member of and where it will object to use of our rightful and historic name - Macedonia.

indigen 09-18-2010 09:11 PM

[QUOTE=julie;61844]my head is sore.

[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="4"]I say, lets empower RoM to declare the IA null and void[/SIZE][/COLOR]

How can the UN suspend Macedonia from declaring sovereignty? Under MMMMMMM for Macedonia?

And if they do, surely there would be loopholes and laws where we can cry foul and discrimination?

[B]And so bloody hell what if we are not part of the UN[/B]

Am so over other countries dangling carrots before the scared bunny.

[B]Let the bunny grow some balls I say.[/B]

Am over it. the UN, EU and NATO can jump in the bloody lake and take Grease down with them[/QUOTE]

Right on the money, Julia!

indigen 09-18-2010 09:14 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;61854]Bratot,

I've posted my view over and over again:

[B]DECLARE THE INTERIM ACCORD 'NULL AND VOID' AND REVERSE ITS IMPLEMENTATION.[/B]

You have been supporting a SECOND international name throughout this thread, arguing we should join international organisations as FYROM.

I have consistently repeated this:

[B]DECLARE THE INTERIM ACCORD 'NULL AND VOID' AND REVERSE ITS IMPLEMENTATION.

[/B]I'll repeat it again for you:

[B]DECLARE THE INTERIM ACCORD 'NULL AND VOID' AND REVERSE ITS IMPLEMENTATION.[/B]

Here's YOUR Gligorovist arguments again:[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by Bratot
After we become members in NATO and after we succeed prevailing within (again the ex. with Turkey) we can more justiciable withdraw the IA and stay members in NATO, which will better our diplomatic position in whole and our international relations if we decide to surpass the resolution for re-admission of our country under the Constitutional name.

In the current position we are basically defenceless in every meaning and we can easily be a subject of worse scenarios.

I'm not equating Macedonia with Serbia in their policies, I'm only suggesting nothing is exaggerated when it comes to the repercussions. We wont be bombed for sure but we are so much vulnerable at this moment that we can be forced into another scenario of Ramkoven.

That will surely lead into worsen development of the situation in the country and yes, than the wet dream of Greece as I already cited Samaras will come true.[/QUOTE]

I am curious to know what is B.'s current position vis-a-vis "END THE NAME NEGOTIATIONS" campaign!?

Risto the Great 09-18-2010 11:08 PM

[QUOTE=Vangelovski;60855]Its amazing how the Palestinians in Gaza can withhold a four year embargo, completley sealed off on all borders and at sea, going without basic food supplies, medicine and electricity in order to resist their oppressors, yet an entire generation of Macedonians were devastated by the (one-sided) Greek embargo while having complete access to the worlds markets through its other neighbours.[/QUOTE]
Can anyone please tell me the most prominent examples of suffering that Macedonians in Macedonia have endured since seceding from Yugoslavia?

fyrOM 09-19-2010 12:58 AM

If we can move on...I like this thread because it looks at an interesting question

What if RoM is recognised by her name. It is what you have wanted isnít it so then whatís next.

How do you see the occupied parts and the identity of the Macedonians there effected by RoM and the Macedonian identity being fully recognised.

Buktop 09-19-2010 07:02 AM

[QUOTE=Risto the Great;71252]Can anyone please tell me the most prominent examples of suffering that Macedonians in Macedonia have endured since seceding from Yugoslavia?[/QUOTE]
Are you serious?

You are even quoting Vangelovski's post where he claims it was a "One sided" Greek embargo?

Please Risto, I had hoped you did a little more research on the subject than that...

Rogi 09-19-2010 08:04 AM

Well Buktop, the border with Serbia may have been 'officially' closed, but by no means was it really closed. There are 10 Macedonians (there are more, but extensive enough dossiers exist on at least 10), all involved and related to the then SDSM Government, who made tens of millions of dollars (some much more) in a very, very short period through the under the table corrupt deals in trade with Serbia, many of which involved oil, all of which caused severe and direct damage to the Macedonian economy. It is estimated that some $2B was in effect stolen and taken outside of Macedonia and the Macedonian economy by this group of people.

The embargo by Greece was only exacerbated by the corruption within the ranks of the then Macedonian Government. Oil was the only real concern, but there were alternate trading routes that were established and though the final costs of getting the oil to Macedonia were higher, it would not have done what it did to the Macedonian economy, had it not been for the corruption, plunder and theft that was rife at the time.


Now just for a little perspective: The cost to Macedonia's economy as a result of the Greek embargo, is estimated at around $700m. The UN Sanctions against Serbia, which forced Macedonia to close its' northern border, cost Macedonia about 3 times more than the Greek embargo, though truth be told, that is mainly because of the above reasons.




[url]http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-20000643.html[/url]


Also, I believe in the above quote, 'one-sided' means the border was closed by Greece, but Macedonia did not do the same, the Macedonian border was still open in that Greece could still trade with other nations and have Macedonia as a transit nation, it just would not sell or buy to and from Macedonia.

Bratot 09-19-2010 12:14 PM

Actually, I think that wasn't your true intention with quoting Vangelovski in directing your question for me, maybe I'm wrong, but I got such impression as you tend to attach the specific doubt on me.

And asking me something like this, where I really think I was very honest and preserved clear positions during the whole time of my membership here, it's very offensive for me.

I don't think I deserve such disrespect. Even though I have no problems making it clear once again, only to satisfy your need to have me questioned,[B] I fully support this campaign[/B] and very soon I will be able to offer more concrete support with constant advertising and much more.

Risto the Great 09-19-2010 05:38 PM

[QUOTE=Buktop;71273]Are you serious?

You are even quoting Vangelovski's post where he claims it was a "One sided" Greek embargo?

Please Risto, I had hoped you did a little more research on the subject than that...[/QUOTE]
Is it safe to assume that the Greek embargo (in your mind) is the most devastating event that Macedonians have endured since secession? How much capitulation was in order given the suffering that the Macedonians endured (in your mind)?


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